Patrick C asks...
The books great, but your explanation of high rep and isolation has me confused.
Powerlifters are some of the strongest men in the world, but when at low body fats like a bodybuilder, they generally don't compare to bodybuilders who lift less in terms of mass.
Are you really denying the possibility of emphasizing sarcoplasmic hypertrophy over myofibrillar, do you really think steroids is the only reason programs that focus on high rep with lots of exercises work? Are you sure that your experience with high rep and isolation wasn't negative because of overtraining? It certainly sounds that way.
I'm not denying the benefit of heavy lifting, I think it can allow bodybuilders to get past a plateau with their high rep sets and other exercises, allowing them to lift more in those sets (as well as offering it's own hypertrophy benefits), therefore indirectly increasing the hypertrophy benefit of those sets and exercises.
I also think the 5 compound lifts you introduce in stronglifts 5x5 should be the starting point for any strength athlete or bodybuilder, but I don't think high rep sets and isolation are evil or worthless.
It's a matter of context. The large majority of guys in mainstream gyms cannot Squat 300lb or Deadlift 400lb. Heck, they can't even Squat 225lb/Deadlift 300lb. So for them - unless they're one of the bozo's shooting up the juice, or just genetic freaks - high reps and isolation exercises are completely worthless.
Here's why: it's scientifically-proven that strength is size. Anecdotally, the best-built guys are always the ones with a strength background. In fact, one of the best bodybuilders ever, Arnold Schwarzenegger, started as an Olympic lifter and Powerlifter BEFORE turning to bodybuilding. These two pics prove it...
Arnold Schwarzenegger started as a Powerlifter, winning two competitions between 1966 and 1968, before winning his first Mr Olympia Bodybuilding title in 1970.
Like Ronnie Coleman, 8x Mr Olympia and 800lb Deadlifter, once said "Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder but nobody wanna lift no heavy weight!" Even Arnold's life-long mentor, 3x Mr Universe Reg Park (who was born before steroids even existed) could Deadlift 700lb, Squat 605lb and Bench Press 500lb.
Today, there's obviously Layne Norton, life-time drug-free lifter like myself, pro bodybuilder and yet also a national powerlifting record holder in the Squat and Deadlift (Layne's best lifts: 584lb Squat, 364lb Bench Press, 700lb Deadlift).
Layne Norton, life-time drug-free pro bodybuilder champion and national powerlifting record holder in the Squat and Deadlift.
As far as my first 5 years of high reps, isolation exercises and machines goes: I GOT results because, unlike most guys in the gym, I did heavy Squats and Bench Press from the start. My mentor also taught me to constantly try to add more weight than last time. The only negative about it was:
- I hit a brick wall - because I trained to failure every single workout, every week, 52 weeks a year. Never heard of deload.
- I trained 5 times per week for up to 3 hours a day - hard to have a life outside the gym when you're training one muscle a day.
- I got bored - I wasn't getting any stronger (yet I was full of injuries) and grew old and tired of training for the 6 pack.
Listen, I started going to the gym because I was skinny-fat. But once my man boobs and belly fat were gone, and I had gained several pounds of muscle, that motivation was gone. I needed something else to keep me motivated. And since I was no longer STUDENT but had a Coporate IT job working shifts & weekends, I simply didn't have the time anymore to train 5x/week for up to 3h/day.
Seven years ago I started focusing on strength instead of aesthetics. Ironically, I look better now even though I no longer care, routinely have people ask me if I lift weights and still have a 6 pack even though I don't do frigging situps ever. All those results in half the time spent in the gym, and without the frustration of looking strong but not actually being strong. I'm not going back, ever.
Look, I'm not going to BS you: if you prefer to be a bodybuilder, you'll also have to do high reps and isolation. Just remember that the best bodybuilders almost always have a strength background because strength equals size. You'll never be able to lift heavy weights when doing 3 sets of 10 reps with a single joint exercise like dumbbell flies. You need heavy Benching, Squatting and Deadlifts.
Just get strong, eat mostly whole foods and repeat. Unless you're one of those insecure, narcissistic gym rats, you'll be more than happy with how you look and never have to worry about that hypertrophy nonsense. I certainly don't.
I pretty much agree with you, but whats your approach to high volume work like German Volume Training?
This doesnt necessarily mean you do high rep sets but simply a lot of sets. Most GVT regimens have you do all compounds which are in SL too, they also have 5×5 sets but alot of different exercises for each muscle group. Because of the high volume a split is recomended where each muscle group is only trained once a week (eg Pecs/back, legs/abs, Arms/schoulder-> 3 workdays per week)
Would you recomend this for a short period of about 10 weeks to improve endurance/ hypertrophy after SL and before starting intermediate work? some seem to have great mass results on these kind of programs
I think a lot of guys are looking for ways to avoid the big heavy compound lifts. Whether they realise it or not. You might see big guys doing small weights sometimes but you’ll never see small guys deciding to pull 500lb for a change. Go figure.
When Nautilus first came out with the circuit station back in the 70′s thousands of people were doing the circuit machines, but getting minimal results. Then when they switched to doing barbell exercises they saw tremendous results really quickly. The reason machines aren’t as effective is because they restrict your plane of movement which is unnatural. People were meant to pick up rocks and logs, not to do pec flys on a pec deck.
Stay strong,
-Scott Grant
@Mehdi: What do you think of this contradiction?
Jim Wendler said that Kroc rows (20-40 reps) helped him with back and grip strength.
High rep=sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.
Sarcoplasmic hyp. doesn´t help much with strength.
What do you think of this?
ChinaBoy
You don’t need the high reps for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, just do 10-20 sets of 5 reps. High volume with heavy weights deliver. If you pack it into and EDT format, it works even better. Like this I could add strength and size at the same time. Just saying…
I think the bulk of Mehdi’s advice (including today’s blog) is aimed at inexperienced or frusterated lifters. But the people who are most active on his site are usually intermediate to advanced lifters. Decide which group you are in before taking a stance on whether high reps/hypertrophy could be beneficial to you.
^ Agreed. I feel as if Mehdi is so strong on his stance with 5×5 that he refuses to improve his understanding of other formats of training. I also feel that his sample on high reps and isolation is a deformed one. Just because you do high reps with many isolation exercises doesn’t mean you have to train up to 3 hours a day. That’s a doomed recipe. That’s your own mistake because for sure the workout should never take 3 hours and surely not 2 neither.
best way for muscle mass is buiild up strengh for a few years-than blast that muscle with higher reps and volume training. If you never go over 5 reps youl train the central nervous system more than the muscles- If you never go below 8 reps youl lack the dense look. Some of the best bodybuilders started as power lifters, but if you never move beyond 5×5 youl never look like a bodybuilder-which is fine if your happy with that. I alway deadlift in the 4-6 rep range and it has given me a thick look. As for Layne Norton being natural -he may be, but competing in natural bodybuilding doesnt always mean your natural- theres no test to detect growth hormone and a lot of natural guys use it. He might be natural as i believe he only weighs about 220 or so,but natural doesnt always mean what it should.
Funny…I was actually thinking about this yesterday. I’ve almost met my strength goals on the major lifts and was wondering how I can incorporate some isolation exercises into my modified 5×5 strength routine. Any suggestions?
@chinaboy
Kroc rows are an assistance exercise, he was probably using them to even out imbalances, not get sarcoplasmic hypertrophy
@Beag-
Little guys (and I’d guess all guys) can’t just decide to pull 500 lbs. (I sure couldn’t – yet) You need to work up to that sort of weight or you’ll just hurt yourself. But yeah, it’s also a problem of not wanting to do the lift.
I love 5×5 don’t get me wrong. But I’ve sort of twisted it to my liking. Here’s how it goes; I usually form my workouts around a compound movement for ex. one day I’ll Bench 5×5 and incorporate my biceps. next day or every other day, I’ll Squat 5×5 and then do some hamstring work, or calf raises.
Deadlifts 5×5 and then do some tricep isolations or pullups.
I try to get compound movements involved with a split routine.
Yea like your style shayne- same principle i work to
I think the point is this, stick to your goal and stick to the type of workout that will lead to your goal. You want to look like a bodybuilder, get a good base strength and do a bodybuilder’s workout. You want to get strong and not get a bodybuilder’s physique, i.e. usually large muscles all over, then train like a powerlifter. The best workout is the one that you can stick with. And there is no golden program that can achieve everything you want. You have to focus on a goal and just stick to the things that will accomplish your goals. I want a strong muscular body but I’m not planning to join any bodybuilding contest or do I want a bodybuilder’s physique. I sit all day in the office so I also want some active cardio once in a while. hence, I do stronglifts and boxing.
Clays, comment has hit the nail on the head for me. People are trying to draw a big blurry line between Strength training and Bodybuilding and in my opinion it cant be done.
Strength training is an excellent foundation for bodybuilding but not the other way round.
Everyone will have a preference. Do what suits your goals.
For me, I’d rather be the guy pulling a 500lb deadlift than the guy that just looks like he can pull 500lbs.