Adding an extra set of Squats 1xF - Gym Guy says....

[langknow]

HI Guys,

I was doing my work out today, and one of the personal trainer (the same one in my other post who said I was lifting too light) was using the squat rack , with a client, and I asked how many sets, they had left, so he said they were doing a circuit or something, but I said, ok, let me work in between.

So I'm doing my squats, and then after the 3rd set, the personal trainer says to me "You know, you can keep slowly progressing your squat load, but I think you should add an extra set, and just go all out 1 set until failure, I think you can do atleast 10 to 15 reps.."

I told him "oh, ok, thanks ".

So my question is: What do you guys think about adding one extra set going until failure.

Another reason I'm asking is because, I'm not really getting tired or anything when doing squats. I guess what I'm asking is , when will the weight start to feel like a workout ?

I'm currently squating : 37.5 + 45 + 37.5

(on a side note: I guess I'm really popular now in the gym , I've had in total , 4 personal trainers give me advice

[vhalros]

Well, it varies considerably from person to to person, depending on your build, and your starting level of strength (which depends on your "natural" strength and any previous activities you've done). In my experience it started to feel like a "work out" once I got to about 180, and it started to feel really heavy once I got a little bit past body weight, but I have short legs (makes it easier), and did a lot of karate (karate stances are like uber wall sits...) and some body weight stuff before. I have a couple of gym buddies with less previous training than me and less advantageous builds, and it started to feel heavy for them at a bit less than their own body weight (like, .8 or .9).

At light weights, doing another set to failure probably wouldn't hurt much, but I don't see that it would help anything either. My guess is that it would hamper recovery at heavier weights.

You're adding 15 lbs/week to squats, so I don't think you'll have too long before it starts to feel challenging If you are impatient and/or very confident in your form, you could add 10 pounds/session until that gets to be too much.

I'd say stick with the program though, its done wonders for me at any rate

[muddy]

I would not do a set to failure. Several reasons, two of them lesser reasons, one of them the main reason:

Lesser:
1) Going to failure will increase your recovery time, which will be exactly what you do not want as the weights get heavier.
2) Going to failure is likely to result in serious form deterioration - when you have a longer training history, you can better gauge when you can get away with something like this. Right now, it's a pointless risk, and the opposite of what you want to be doing, which is ensuring your neural patterns get locked in on doing these moves exactly right.

Main:
1) You do not want to stall early. As a novice lifter, you stall when you skip ahead and get to really hard territory before your body (both muscles and connective tissue) have had a chance to get there, and are thus unable to do the weight. Repeated attempts to punch through this wall fail, because the prior early failures are not working you sufficiently and in the way that would allow a more complete adaptation, and your only choice is to back down again and start over. By not jumping ahead, your body is making changes that will enable to you keep going as the weight adds on. Strength training is not a sprint, it is a marathon. If you sprint, you will gas. Gassing means you end up taking more time to accomplish the same thing than if you'd have been more patient and consistent in your increases. The trainer means well by encouraging you, but it is not helping. The advice is counter to what makes the kind of program you are doing effective.

If you are still not convinced, think of it this way:

If the weights are easy right now, cool. This is when you should be nailing form, and ensure you are consistently setting up for and executing every exercise. You are squatting 120, and you weigh 170. This means in a mere 10 workouts, you will be doing your bodyweight for 5x5. That's not even a month away. By the end of the year, if you can keep this up, you've added 90 pounds to your squat, and you are doing 5x5x210. If it is STILL not heavy to you, keep it up through Feb, and you have added another 105 lbs to your squat, and you are doing 5x5x315. If you've stalled before you get to this point, you know you've done everything possible to delay that for as long as possible.

[jakemcmillan]

Many top level olympic lifers in the world rarely go to failure. That's all I have to say.

[ricepower]

Going to failure, especially early in your training is a good way to get injuries.

If your form feels really solid and your getting great depth, feel free to stick in extra reps with empty bar or something. But I wouldnt change the actual work sets. If you feel it is easy just lift very fast/explosiveley and be glad for a short training session.

If you add 2.5kg, 3 times in a week that is 7.5kg per week. that is + 30kg in one month.

It usually gets very tough for everyone when you have to pass bodyweight.

I have been doing stronglifts for nearly a year, and I can still get pretty fatigued by empty bar squats.

[s0ku]

The rules Mehdi has put forth for this program are simple, but they keep progress continuous. If you look at the program in terms of months instead of weeks, following it strictly will safely guarantee you results. The program seems to be designed to help you avoid setbacks and progress steadily. It's almost like the tortoise and the hare. Slow and steady will guarantee you the the race. Meanwhile, the hare will inevitably injure or stall because he's pushin' too hard. The speed is for naught.

As mentioned, going until failure with squats will, at least with challenging weights, lead to increased recovery time. And if you keep up the pace of the program when you're not recovered, you risk stall and injury. All this could derail your progress. Like someone said, you could try it for now, but regardless, in a month you'll be at your body weight. At that point, it probably won't be feasible on this program. And if you accidentally injure yourself meanwhile, you risk that steady and substantial progress.

In my opinion, it's a big risk for a relatively small reward.

[Bman1]

Langknow - YOu and your "gym guys" threads are great. It is good that the "trainers" are aware of your presence and that you are trying to get stronger, but their constant tidbits of advice are amusing. I really do think these "gym guys" do have good intentions. I would suggest letting them know that you intend to stick with this program for 6-8 more weeks and see where is takes you. In that time you should be squatting at quite a bit more weight (anwhere from 60-120 more pounds). Let's see how much more advice they are giving you when you are squatting 200 lbs with good form. Also, it wouldn't hurt to tell them to check out this website.

[crazyj23]

you are not gonna want to do a set to failure after your 5 sets when the weight gets heavy. YOU WILL NOT WANT TO DO SQUATS AT ALL when you think about how heavy it is while getting under the bar. You will also be very tired after 5 sets and your heart will be beating hard after a good heavy set. Try not to listen to the gym guys, just stick to your program and dont get to anxious to lift heavy. Before you know it it will be almost too heavy and it will be hard to get yourself motivated to finish the sets even without stalling. All I'm saying is that you will be thinking that the guys on the forum told me so and will be kicking your own ass for not listening when you either stall way to soon or get hurt.

[22Alpha]

I think a key thing to learn is that we should take "advice" from people who don't even know what we're doing with a pinch of salt.

[jpez]

It looks like the personal trainer can see that you can push yourself harder than you are at the moment and you probably feel the same way too, but be patient. The weights are going to start to get very heavy very soon and you'll look back at this thread and laugh, so be cool and be patient and you'll start to push your limits very soon.

[Shox]

When you get to a decent weight (60kg+), you won't be able to do an extra set. And if you manage i doubt you'll get much more than 5 reps.

[arehb]

5x5 reps of squats three times a week is actually a pretty heavy program, alot more heavy than what for example Mark Rippetoe think is necessary for optimal strength gain.

I`d say go for the extra set. People on this site are too dogmatic. Mehdi`s program is great but there are more ways to do things, and thinking for yourself is always good. When you feel the extra set makes you so exhausted that progress is difficult, drop it.

[jpez]

5x5 reps of squats three times a week is actually a pretty heavy program, alot more heavy than what for example Mark Rippetoe think is necessary for optimal strength gain.

I`d say go for the extra set. People on this site are too dogmatic. Mehdi`s program is great but there are more ways to do things, and thinking for yourself is always good. When you feel the extra set makes you so exhausted that progress is difficult, drop it.

The problem is that if he adds the extra set and trains to failure first off he may deplete himself for his other lifts, training to failure also causes a lot of unneeded fatigue which could be dangerous for a beginner and could cause him to stop training all together.

As a beginner I believe you should be dogmatic and stick strictly to the program. Adding exercises and messing with programs is for advanced lifters that know what they're doing and have a reason for doing it. All beginners have to do is
1 - Get their ass in the gym as consistently as they can
2 - Make sure they're sleeping and eating as much as they should
3 - Stick to a basic program

If you're a beginner start acting like one.

[arehb]

The problem is that if he adds the extra set and trains to failure first off he may deplete himself for his other lifts, training to failure also causes a lot of unneeded fatigue which could be dangerous for a beginner and could cause him to stop training all together.

Not very likely to happen the first few workouts since he is at a stage now where he isn`t really getting tired from the squat workout.

[s0ku]

The problem is that if he adds the extra set and trains to failure first off he may deplete himself for his other lifts, training to failure also causes a lot of unneeded fatigue which could be dangerous for a beginner and could cause him to stop training all together.

Not very likely to happen the first few workouts since he is at a stage now where he isn`t really getting tired from the squat workout.

I think the question is when does he stop training till failure so he doesn't deplete himself for challenging lifts, causing potential stall or injury. I don't think even he can answer that question accurately if he's asking us this.

When I started to train with my friend, he thought the empty bar and low weight was ridiculous, so he would just do as many sets and repetitions as he could. Initially, it made little difference. As we climbed in weight though, he wouldn't be as recovered as me. That translated into struggle with form. Poor form turned into poor gains. Soon, he was doing 3x5 to keep up with my weight progression. And now, 3x5 is a struggle. All of this, presumably, because he was overexerting himself in the transition period between easy weights and hard weights. I just feel that that's a delicate stage, and you don't want to mess that up. More importantly, you don't know where that stage is if you're a beginner, so it's safer to stick with the program unless you really know your body.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.