Are we jumping the gun with 5 x 5 protocol?

[lovestolift]

Okay, before anyone gets fired up about this, I just want to make it clear that I want a real discourse on this, not some sort of "You're a traitor!" type of attack. I'd like to hear from both sides of the argument, preferably with pros and cons of either method. I am doing the StrongLifts 5 x 5 right now. I like it BTW, I just find it hard to recover from what have become 1 1/2 hour workouts.

I have been reading a lot of Rippetoe's stuff lately and he recommends 3 x 5 for novices, usually without assistance exercises. I have also seen that 5 x 5 is usually prescribed for intermediates, since they can handle the volume present in such a protocol.

So, are we jumping the gun? Would it be better to focus on only 3 exercises each session for a novice, leaving assistance exercises for a later date/ when they are needed to fix weaknesses?

I'd like to hear from both sides of the argument, preferably with pros and cons of either method. I am doing the StrongLifts 5 x 5 right now. I like it BTW, I just find it hard to recover from what have become 1 1/2 hour workouts, even though I am eating enough to gain muscle and fat.

[BassJunkie]

stronglifts-5x5-official-faq-t11443.html#p214171 question five.

Doing it fully, you will get more strength benefits, doing it without the assistance exercises and 3x5 you will find it easier and it will be shorter but you won't get the same benefit (you might be able to lift 200lbs 3x5 but not strong enough to do it 5x5)

That's it put simply, I'm sure someone else could elaborate it you would still like some more info.

[americanadian]

3x5, 5x5, 3x8, 4x10, whatever. But in this instance we'll stick with 3x5 vs 5x5 because of the spirit of the site and the question.

My answer: depends on exercises, desired results, fitness level and weight lifted. I like to think I'm well along in my training, but I sure as hell couldn't do what I'm doing at the weight I'm doing it at with a 5x5 format, so I picked 3x5.

Beginner generally can't damage themselves as much as more experienced lifters and therefore recover faster and can do more volume (in this progressive load style of lifting) without the associated fatigue. When things get heavier, well...

I think squatting three times a week is ridiculous after a certain point -3x5 or 5x5, but for beginners it's ok, and they get away with it. I could too if I cut my lifts way down and was going for a more volume oriented/ stamina style workout.

I like Mehdi's arguement that 5x5 recruits the muscles more, but remember SL starts with an empty bar, Rippetoe at 3x5 doesn't, so three exercises is where it's at. Both are good for beginners and they'll both get you to where you're going, but neither will turn you into the next World's Strongest Man.

I advocate 5x5 for beginners because I think they can handle it and I'm a proponent of volume in the beginning.

[lovestolift]

Okay, here is what the Starting Strength Wiki has to say on the volume matter. It makes sense to me. I would still consider myself a novice in the linear progression game, due to much wasted time with random workouts, but I am having trouble fully recovering from the volume. Mainly in my triceps. I find them to be overly sore during the next workout. I think I could do well on a lower volume program, then I could progress to a 5 x 5 when I have advanced my lifts. I would still get the form practice in by doing the warm up style here. My main issue right now is rest. I work two jobs, so rest is hard to come by some days.

[americanadian]

Volume to me (and keep in mind I have a BB background) is number of lifts, not amount lifted. I call that "total weight moved". Maybe my nomenclature is off. Dunno, dont care over much.

If you are having trouble recovering, and you have taken all the prescribed remedies (food, sleep, water, blah), then I fully support a switch to 3x5. It may also be that you have a tricep imbalance, which is why they are getting sore so much. Neither program targets those specifically.

LTL, what ever you decide to do, I support your decision. Remember that I also have issue with a few things around here and need to be reminded ever now and again not everybody is me, or like me. I just like the 5x5 idea better for the raw novice, which I believe you are not. Whether you are at 1.5BW squat or not, it's time to really and personally address you training.

Gotta say I'm suprised at the lack of comments made on this topic though.

[lovestolift]

Gotta say I'm suprised at the lack of comments made on this topic though.

Me too. And I appreciate that you used the right word, nomenclature. You didn't dumb it down.

Also, why would you not consider me a novice. I feel that my lifts justify the moniker. I have spent too much time training wrong. I always followed the Men's Health "switch it up every month" idea. That works for an advanced fellow, but I need to get my lifts up.

[muddy]

Volume to me (and keep in mind I have a BB background) is number of lifts, not amount lifted. I call that "total weight moved". Maybe my nomenclature is off. Dunno, dont care over much.

FWIW: volume = # of sets * # of reps/set * weight on the bar


I completely understand your concern about debating this point, lovestolift. My take is one of the most important things you can get out of this program is to learn how to know what works for you. I believe Medhi emphasizes this himself.

First, above all, be sure we're clear on what we mean by "works": in this context, it is probably that your PRs are increasing. The definition of "works better" is anything that makes that happen more quickly than other programming methods.

I'm sure you have a log, online or a notebook and track what you do. The more you can track, the better: sleep, diet, mood, whatever, in addition to your actual lifts. Even "little" things such as bar speed matters in my opinion (and I'd argue that's not so little). Then you start to see what works. Are your PRs going up? Are you deloading a lot? Are you feeling run down? Why? Figure it out. Postulate answers, tweak things, see how they respond. Give it enough time to work.

Maybe 3x5 really would be better. If so, try it. Personally, I am not at all convinced there is a single "best" beginner, intermediate, whatever, program. My suspicion is that a lot depends on the particular person: their genetics, what suits them mentally and lets them get that little extra spark of motivation in the gym to push that little bit harder, and so on.

I started with 5x5 and am glad I did. I certainly needed the form practice. I was very glad to have a program make a lot of sense, and say "look, just DO THIS". I really needed that, because what I was doing before was just a waste of time. At first, I think it is especially essential to just trust a pre-set program. There's just no way as a novice to know how to figure this out.

But eventually, It became hard for me to bounce back as well. I'm older than many on this site, so I didn't know if it was age, my makeup, whatever. It's certainly not my diet or sleep. So I began to change up my program and see how that worked for me. I read a lot (Practical Programming was a great start, but the Westside stuff was useful, Crossfit has been very useful, etc). I now have a program that I think suits me much better. So far, the numbers are showing that's real, and not a mere belief.

And when this stops working, I'll think about it again, and adjust.

Am I, by Rippetoe's definition, a beginner or an intermediate? Frankly, I don't know, and I don't really care. Probably in a grey area between the two. But what I do think I am getting much, much better at is understanding the theory behind the programming, and understanding how I am responding to it. And above all, measure it all and compare.

Anyway, this is just a long-winded way of saying I think it's a very healthy question to ask, and I don't know if there's a good way to answer it. Medhi has trained a lot of people, Rippetoe has trained a metric shit-ton of people. How do you compare? And in the end, if you're becoming aware of what works for you, does it even matter which way you start?

[americanadian]

Muddy, you just get it, man. Keep it up.

LTL, when it really comes down to it pre-packages programs are only going to work so long, and then it's up to you to recognize this, find what works for you (and with experience this becomes a lot easier), and make the necessary changes. Lifts and knowledge don't always go together, and as much as I WOULDN'T recommend a Men's Health carbon copy pretty boy workout to anybody, there are some good things in there. Occassionally. The time spent "wasting time" was actually spent learning some very valuable lessons, if you'd just recognize them as such.

Linear progression is actually a very taxing way to go after a while. One of the reasons it stops working actually- or at least stops being possible because theoretically it would work forever.

Moving forward, keep the log up-to-date to make sure you are progressing.

[Blake]

I'm not sure how your workouts got out to 1.5 hours. Its really a 1 hour max workout. 20 sets or so, a minute or so rest between the early sets, 3 or 5 for real ball busters. I'd look at getting in and getting through it quicker.
If you need to, do the abs at home on the days off, that might save you some time.

[lovestolift]

I think the question I am really asking is this: If you load your body with a fair bit of volume, wouldn't you have to up the ante more in the future to get a response?

As far as the 1.5 hour workouts, that is usually when I do the 'A' workout with 5x5 barbell rows.

[canoeguide]

Maybe getting off the topic here a bit, but I for one can totally see how SL can work its way up to a 1.5 hour workout. I'm in my second month, and already I find myself taking 4+ minutes sometimes between sets, just to help ensure I get 5x5 and keep adding weight, as well as using warm-up sets (especially on squats, as you do these first). 10 minutes of dynamic stretching pre-workout and stretching post-workout adds another combined 20 minutes or so-- 20 minutes which I think most would agree is well spent. There should never be a reason to rush.

[lovestolift]

@canoeguide- You are right on all fronts.

The issue really isn't the amount of time. I manage to block out the time three times a week to get my workouts in. The issue is whether or not this, combined with total volume is eating into recovery. I may be wrong, but I've always heard that brevity is a good thing in strength training. Something about cortisol levels spiking at a certain point, usually said to be around 45 minutes or so.

Just to be clear, none of this is meant to question Mehdi ro his program in any way, shape or form. I completely respect what he has done here, and I appreciate the forum. I just wonder if the 5 x 5 protocol would be better after doing a 3 x 5 program. That way when you are no longer progressing in a linear fashion, you can shake it up with extra volume.

[Love_Deadlifts]

The reason beginners are able to do the full 5x5 workout is because the weights aren't that large at first. The extra reps help learn form while the weights are very light. It's entirely possible that you've reached the point where you won't be able to recover between workouts. Judging by the amount of time your workouts take i would say yes. Now that you've established a good base with 5x5 you can switch to a program that focuses more on the major lifts (like SS 3x5) if you just want to have really strong core lifts or to a program that alternates heavy/light days like Texas Method that still contains "accessory lifts" like dips, pullups, etc....

[groundskeeperwillie]

Good thread.
I also think I'm not recovering enough between workouts, even though my weights are creeping up again. When it comes to workout days I can still feel the last workout in my my arms, shoulders and especially legs. But lets also remember that it's not just 5 x 5, if you include the warm-up sets it looks more like 8 x 5 (even though the first 3 sets are lower weight). All this adds to fatigue and the amount of time it takes to complete a workout.
Also, I might joke and call myself an old git, but I'm 44 this year, and while that's not old really, if I was 20 or 25 and doing this routine, I'd be making a lot more progress I'm sure.
As I said at the beginning of this post, good thread, and it's provoking some serious thought.

[lovestolift]

Here's a quote from Rippetoe: "If a novice is subjected to a linear increase in loading, he will get stronger in a linear fashion, and this is always facilitated by a gain in lean mass along with a little fat. The question for him is what kind of program makes him strong the fastest, and that program uses 3 x 5. Five sets has proven to be too much volume for rapid recovery, and one set isn't enough." The thread it was taken from is here.

The theory behind 5 sets is that the weight is light at the beginning. But once the weight gets heavier, your volume for the same weight would be substantially higher. Let's say that you have two identical trainees, both working with 200 lb squats. One is doing 5 x 5 and the other is doing 3 x 5. The volume for the first would be 200 x 5 x 5 = 5000. The volume for the second would be 200 x 3 x 5 = 3000. However their intensity would be quite different, if we take intensity to mean % of 1RM. The first may be working with 80%, while the second may be working with 90% (these are just guesses). Obviously the second would be lifting with more intensity and less volume, which could aid in recovery.

Now for workout 'A' on top of the 25 reps of bench press, I am also taking three sets of dips to failure. At my body weight of 220, doing an average of 4 reps each set, my volume on that would be 220 x 3 x 4 = 2640. Now add in bench at 140 x 5 x 5 = 3500, and you have a combined volume of 6140 lbs for triceps shoulders and chest. Even with a small bench press I am doing far more volume for my those areas than I am for my legs. I am starting to see why my triceps are sore.

This seems to leave three options:
1.Continue with the same protocol, including accessory exercises - I have seen progress here, so there is something to be said, but my recovery is lacking
2.Continue with the same protocol, but drop the accessory exercises - The volume would drop only on upper body
3 Switch to Starting Strength - I like this idea, but I can't do power cleans, since I work out at home (8th floor apartment) and substituting barbell rows wouldn't really be doing SS

Just found that someone posted this from Rip:

*** Use the LEAST COMPLEX PROGRAMMING possible at all times.
Only advance to more complex programming when absolutely necessary.
One of the biggest, if not THE biggest mistakes made is violating rule # 1. If you violate
rule #1, it is a guarantee that you are slowing your gains down. You may still make
gains, but you will not be making them as fast as possible if you are able to use less
complex programming.

That was my real point. Beyond all the recovery, are we over-complicating things with all the extra work?