Are you guys sure about the Squat???

[langknow]

Hi All,

I'm reading the Starting Strength book, and squat pass parallel makes sense.

However, I've been approached again, while doing my squats today, about how bad it's going to be fore my knees when it's heavy.

And from what I've seen, other people in the gym, and a lot of the personal trainers, I see people only squating about a quarter.

It just seems to me that I'm the only one .

After I finished my squating today, I was using the smith machine for inverse lateral rows, and I noticed another personal trainer showing a guy how to squat, and it's confusing as hell for me, it seems that he told the guy opposite of what I was reading in Starting Strength.

He told the guy to put his knees inward while he was going up, and at the same time, to look straight in the mirror to check your form. He was squating 45 lb on each side plus the bar, but he didn't go all the way down.

So I guess my question is, is it really safe to squat all the way pass parralel ? And if it is, how should I politely tell the personal trainers and other folk, to stop asking me about it...?

[RobCosimo]

Yes, it really is. YouTube powerlifters squatting huge weights and going past parallel. No powerlifter wants to injure him/herself - if it was bad for the knees most powerlifters wouldn't be able to walk.

The knees should go outwards, not inwards, for pretty obvious reasons.

[atypical1]

It's considerably better for your knees to go all the way down. Stopping short puts a lot of pressure on them and that causes injuries. Going all the way down transfers the load to your hips instead of your knees.

It's hard to always do the right thing because there's so much bad information out there that gets proliferated. But if you're going to parallel or past then you are doing the right thing and you don't need to explain yourself to anyone else. One way to answer their question is to always carry a copy of starting strength or you can simply photocopy those particular pages and show them to whoever asks. They might not believe you still but at least it's another source.

james

[DeadStrength]

Yes, it is safer past parallel, for the shearing forces and pressure on the knee when squatting above parallel that james mentioned. As he said, past parallel the load passes to the hips and off the knees.

Here's the way to get people to stop talking to you:
1) Wear headphones, even if they're not collected to a player.
2) If people still talk to you, just say "thanks" and keep doing your workout.
3) If they talk to you again ask them if they can provide you with any studies or scientific literature that say such a thing. Tell them they can bring it next time you're at the gym. You'll bring your literature (that has study references) that says squatting past parallel with your knees out if\s mechanically safer, and the two of you can compare the material and discuss, perhaps over a frothy protein shake.

Believe me, after step 3 they won't talk to you again.

[sgtrock]

The Brokeback Brothers(TM!) at my local gym almost always only bench press. Since they've seen me squatting, they started adding "squats" themselves -- quarter squats on the Smith Machine. I always wondered what the hell is the purpose of only going down 1/4 way, but Google And Ye Shall Receive:

http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/show ... ?tid/7164/

Excerpts: (all emphasis mine)

"The quarter squat allows you to overload the squatting muscles. Whereas you might only be able to full squat with 250 x 10 or 300 x 5, or 325 x 3, you will be able to use in excess of 400+ in the quarter squat. This builds a great deal of strength in the hip area, which is the center of power for any athlete."

But beware:

Bill is spot on,in that partial ROM will overload the musculature beyond what it's accustomed to.As he says,this can help build a great deal of strength. The flipside would be the sheer stress placed on the knee caps.

Not only the knee caps, but the knee joints themselves. Starr trains footballers who knees are replaced long before they reach my age.

But are they any good?

If I remember correctly, Hatfield and a few others aren't impressed with quarter squats...even though many do them. The ROM isn't sufficient to recruit many muscle fibers, especially in the quads. The result is a big time loading of the tendons and the knees.

To my way of thinking, they are more of a supporting movement.

So apparently these are specialized movements designed to train your body in how to rack/unrack the bar with heavy loads, and to overload your hips for power for athletic performance. But this causes a disproportionate adaptation response in your body, because you are loading only in a small movement, so a smaller area of your body is getting any benefit.

In fact, elsewhere in the thread linked above, the statement is made that you are expected to do a 5x5 program thoroughly before doing this at all.

Ergo, quarter squats are for athletes and task-specific training, not bodybuilding or teaching at the gym.

[Tenmagnet]

Most people do quarter squats so they can brag that they squatted 400 pounds. That's the main benefit.

Full squats are more technical. You need to have good flexibility in your hips and hamstrings to do them properly. If you can't be bothered to stretch properly or learn form, quarter squats might injure you a bit less, or at least you'll be more likely to get injured OUTSIDE the gym than inside.

Finally, as for personal trainers, they usually receive a lot less training than say, personal financial planners. Ask your neighbours how great a job their financial planners have done over the past two years.

[RobCosimo]

http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/show ... ?tid/7164/

Excerpts: (all emphasis mine)

"The quarter squat allows you to overload the squatting muscles. Whereas you might only be able to full squat with 250 x 10 or 300 x 5, or 325 x 3, you will be able to use in excess of 400+ in the quarter squat. This builds a great deal of strength in the hip area, which is the center of power for any athlete."

But are they any good?
re in the thread linked above, the statement is made that you are expected to do a 5x5 program thoroughly before doing this at all.

Ergo, quarter squats are for athletes and task-specific training, not bodybuilding or teaching at the gym.

Man, I totally needed you when I was arguing there is a purpose for doing quarter squats along time ago...

[hardestgainer]

I would suggest high box squat over 1/4 squats, simply due to the extra stress that quarters put on the knees. I would agree that they could be used as an assistance lift but I wouldn't reccomend substituting full squats with them.

[RobCosimo]

I would suggest high box squat over 1/4 squats, simply due to the extra stress that quarters put on the knees. I would agree that they could be used as an assistance lift but I wouldn't reccomend substituting full squats with them.

Amen.

[FilthyMcNasty]

...man, woe betide anybody that interrupts me when I'm working out, especially to tell me I'm doing something wrong, that's just plain rude...see what they think in six months when you're squatting some monstrous load and they're doing lunges...

[StevieB]

Most people do quarter squats so they can brag that they squatted 400 pounds. That's the main benefit.

that's exactly it. Same goes for partial bench presses

[Portillo]

Personal trainers are usually mainstream and dont want to injure anyone, hence the way they teach is very conservative. Such as quarter squats with a 1kg dumbell. Obviously this isnt the kind of training for a serious strength trainer/powerlifter.

[Sam277]

Most personal trainers are idiots, and i don't even go to public gyms very often. Don't think i've seen any over 170lbs. And if they don't weigh more than me then i sure as fuck ain't listening, let alone paying for their 'advice'.

There, i said it.

Far better using the resources here, and on TNation.

[Munnings]

there is a great read on squat theory and execution by Arioch that describes the different methods of squatting and why it is significantly better to squat at least parrellel and why it is even better still to squat past parrallel. http://www.bodybuildinguniverse.com/routine10.htm
hope it helps

[ArthurNijkamp]

Concerning squats I can say only one thing from personal experience. Ever since snowboarding this year in February, my right knee has been f*cked up. I went to a doctor and he concluded that it was just bruised with some fluids in it. He said it should heal itself within 6-8 weeks. It didn't...

Couple of weeks later I started stronglifts. It was hard to squat so deep and I had to improve my flexibility and mobility a lot. However, two or three weeks into the program my knee started to get better. It has improved ever since.

In my opinion, squatting below parallel is not only harmless, it is actually beneficial to the health of your knees!