Big biceps

[killerdude494949]

Haha, I need to start doing some pull downs as my only back exercise, that might stir up a controversy.

[Sam277]

I may slap you with a wet fish for that.

[MaritimeMass]

Bentover rows, pullups, chinups > curls/isolation excerises (more weight=more muscle growth). Your not a bodybuilder so dont train like one.

[jpez]

Bentover rows, pullups, chinups > curls/isolation excerises (more weight=more muscle growth). Your not a bodybuilder so dont train like one.

It's been said a million times by all the experienced lifters in this forum, it's written in Medhi's free ebook, it makes sense but people don't seem to believe it. Pavel and Rippetoe both have added the barbell curl to their books even though don't think it's beneficial for beginners at all, for just this reason I believe. So people can stop busting their balls. It's unbelievable how much hype has been created in the fitness world to make people believe that barbell curls are one of the most beneficial exercises that exist for strength and that having big biceps somehow automatically makes you strong.

I believe people asking questions of the sort "How can I get big bis" or "Can I add a few curls at the end of my workout" should be directed to Medhi's free ebook where these questions are answered in detail. This is a strength training site, if you want big biceps either be patient to see what stronglifts is all about and why direct bicep work has been omitted or move on to a bodybuilding routine.

[Subsistence]

I am a newbie but I just want to throw this out there. From what I can tell, curls will get your arms bigger. This isn't particularly useful for strength or practical use, and obviously you will need to be eating enough to gain weight and work the rest of your body as well as you won't grow massive arms and have them attached to a stick. You also will get bigger biceps to some degree from indirect work and chin ups. But curling also helps, if your priority is biceps and not functional or practical strength.

[Munnings]

You also will get bigger biceps to some degree from indirect work and chin ups.

You WILL get big bis, not jsut to some degree, if you do 'indirect work' because you are still using those muscles as well as other muscles which will allow bigger gains in hypertrophy all over body, meaning bigger everywhere. You dont have to isolate a muscle to get it big. why do you think people who squat have massive legs? do you think they do some leg extension on the side? NO they squat heavy and squat often. do that with say chins and you will have big bis. I havent done curls in over 3-4 months and ive gotten bigger bis with this routine than what i did when i was doing iso exercises.

[Subsistence]

Well, 1st, there is a difference between indirect work and a compound movement that incorporates but is not limited to a certain muscle. Chin ups and biceps or squats and quads are part of the latter. Squats and biceps, on the other hand, are part of the former.

I am just saying I believe you will get bigger biceps if you top things off with some isolation opposed to doing an exercise that focuses on biceps once ever 4th workout with chinups as per Stronglifts 5x5. Medhi never made the programme to get people big biceps. Yes you'll grow on Stronglifts, and proportionally, but if your main goal is big biceps and not functional strength I think there are faster ways to get there.

[hardestgainer]

Subsistence, without trying to be rude, anyone who wants to get big biceps but without building strength has clicked on the wrong site. I personally have found one armed dumbell rows to be the best method for building biceps. I don't have a personal issue or even think derogatory thoughts about people who do curls, but for beginners doing isolation exercises is akin to putting on the icing before making the cake. Even bodybuilding sites agree with this.

[Mehdi]

Well, 1st, there is a difference between indirect work and a compound movement that incorporates but is not limited to a certain muscle. Chin ups and biceps or squats and quads are part of the latter. Squats and biceps, on the other hand, are part of the former.

I am just saying I believe you will get bigger biceps if you top things off with some isolation opposed to doing an exercise that focuses on biceps once ever 4th workout with chinups as per Stronglifts 5x5. Medhi never made the programme to get people big biceps. Yes you'll grow on Stronglifts, and proportionally, but if your main goal is big biceps and not functional strength I think there are faster ways to get there.

Well you think wrong, that's not the case. There are many mistakes people make in the gym, and here are 2 of them a) focusing on small muscle groups b) thinking you know better.

How to Build Bigger Biceps

I am a newbie but I just want to throw this out there. From what I can tell, curls will get your arms bigger. This isn't particularly useful for strength or practical use, and obviously you will need to be eating enough to gain weight and work the rest of your body as well as you won't grow massive arms and have them attached to a stick. You also will get bigger biceps to some degree from indirect work and chin ups. But curling also helps, if your priority is biceps and not functional or practical strength.

You call yourself a newbie, so why do you give out this kind of advice? I know nothing about plumbing, you don't see me writing blog posts on how to get your toilet unstuck.

No offence, just some tough love.

[jpez]

It may seem like no big deal to a newbie to add a few sets of curls to Stronglifts and it probably isn't when you're starting out, but when the weights get heavier you'll understand why things are designed the why they are and why adding exercises is a waste of time and energy. The thing is Stronglifts is a very finely tuned, balanced program and adding exercises will disrupt this balance. Curls will keep your other more important lifts back and as a result your whole progress.

[Subsistence]

I do agree that it is the wrong site to come to if you want big biceps and not strength. But that doesn't mean that we should pretend that this is the quickest route to big biceps.

Mehdi, I understand your point of view and have read your article. But it is not a universally upheld position. For instance:

"Probably the most basic and most important biceps movement for every bodybuilder ranging from novice to professional is the standing barbell curl. Personally, I have produced great results placing this exercise in the front of my bicep routine. Place this exercise first in your workout when your arms are most fresh and go as heavy as you can allowing yourself to use proper form for at least six repetitions. "

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/betterbiceps.htm

Program 1 here designed for beginners and intermediates for bicep size includes lots of curls:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson215.htm

I could find more examples but I think you get the point. Stronglifts 5x5 was made for strength, not to get big biceps or to get sarcoplasmic hypertrophy at all. Most people here like to remind us of that. And there is nothing wrong with that. But if someone's #1 priority is to get big biceps above all else, I think there are easier ways to get there.

[NotNowChief]

You also will get bigger biceps to some degree from indirect work and chin ups.

You WILL get big bis, not jsut to some degree, if you do 'indirect work' because you are still using those muscles as well as other muscles which will allow bigger gains in hypertrophy all over body, meaning bigger everywhere. You dont have to isolate a muscle to get it big. why do you think people who squat have massive legs? do you think they do some leg extension on the side? NO they squat heavy and squat often. do that with say chins and you will have big bis. I havent done curls in over 3-4 months and ive gotten bigger bis with this routine than what i did when i was doing iso exercises.

KInda good point. try leg extensions instead or squats for a month or two, see how your quads grow.

Try curls for a month or two instead of rows and chins see how your arms grow.

Try tricep extension vs bench and dips for a month or two and see how your arms grow.

Makes perfect sense doesn't it?

"Yeah but these are in additon to SL/SS". You can hang dice from the mirror of a Monaro V8 but nothing you do will make those dice anything but window dressing.

[mjh]

I think it's also worth remembering that with biceps we are talking about very small increments of growth.

How much more growth can you expect from doing compounds plus curls as opposed to just compounds (doing just curls and not compounds is not a serious option for anyone, I hope)? I'm going to speculate that it would be some, but really not much at all.

Is that small amount of additional growth worth it the additional time and effort in the gym, and the additional mental effort of monitoring your arms for minute changes? For some maybe, but not for me, and I'd say not for many of those who use stronglifts and similar kinds of training. And for a beginner, I would think that the cost/benefit of additional direct arm training is extremely low.

[holvoetn]

"Yeah but these are in additon to SL/SS". You can hang dice from the mirror of a Monaro V8 but nothing you do will make those dice anything but window dressing.

Now THIS is perfectly describing the whole context.
Window dressing.

[Mehdi]

I do agree that it is the wrong site to come to if you want big biceps and not strength. But that doesn't mean that we should pretend that this is the quickest route to big biceps.

Mehdi, I understand your point of view and have read your article. But it is not a universally upheld position. For instance:

"Probably the most basic and most important biceps movement for every bodybuilder ranging from novice to professional is the standing barbell curl. Personally, I have produced great results placing this exercise in the front of my bicep routine. Place this exercise first in your workout when your arms are most fresh and go as heavy as you can allowing yourself to use proper form for at least six repetitions. "

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/betterbiceps.htm

It is not about this being the right site or not. It's about whether what you're saying is right or not. Direct arm work is not the quickest route to bigger arms. And you're right that it's not a universally upheld position that direct arm work will increase arm size faster. What's really annoying is that you wrote you were a newbie but are acting stubborn about this. If you keep reading 100x different sources, you're just going to keep confusing yourself and mixing things up.

Bottom of article: References: Schwarzenegger, Arnold. The Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding. Simon and Schuster. 1985, 1998.

Most of the stuff in Schwarzenegger's book are wrong (used to be my bible for years, so I know). Didn't want to read that guy's interpretation, I read the original.

Program 1 here designed for beginners and intermediates for bicep size includes lots of curls:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson215.htm

I could find more examples but I think you get the point. Stronglifts 5x5 was made for strength, not to get big biceps or to get sarcoplasmic hypertrophy at all. Most people here like to remind us of that. And there is nothing wrong with that. But if someone's #1 priority is to get big biceps above all else, I think there are easier ways to get there.

Why don't you read flex while you're at it? Or why don't you do Arnold's full routine?

Here's article from Bill Starr on bigger arms: http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2009/04/bi ... starr.html

This one is from Brawnby Stuart McRobert - a book you must read.

HOW TO SQUAT FOR HUGE ARMS

By Stuart McRobert

Adapted from his best-selling book BRAWN

To build muscle mass, you must increase strength. It’s that simple. You will never get huge arms, a monstrous back, a thick chest, or massive legs without lifting heavy weights. I know that probably doesn’t come as a revelation to anyone. But despite how obvious it seems, far too many people (and not just beginners) neglect power training and rarely make increasing the weights lifted in each successive workout a priority. You must get strong in the basic mass building exercises to bring about a significant increase in muscle size. One of the biggest mistakes typical bodybuilders make is when they implement specialization routines before they have the right to use them.

It constantly amazes me just how many neophytes (beginners), near neophytes, and other insufficiently developed bodybuilders plunge into single-body part specialization programs in the desperate attempt to build big arms. I don’t fault them for wanting big arms, but their approach to getting them is flawed. For the typical bodybuilder who is miles away from squatting 1 ½ times their bodyweight for 20 reps (if you weigh 180 lbs., that means 20 reps with 270 lbs.), an arm specialization program is utterly inappropriate and useless.

The strength and development needed to squat well over 1 ½ times bodyweight for 20 reps will build bigger arms faster then focusing on biceps and triceps training with isolation exercises. Even though squats are primarily a leg exercise, they stress and stimulate the entire body. But more importantly, if you are able to handle heavy weights in the squat, it logically follows that the rest of your body will undoubtedly be proportionally developed. It’s a rare case that you would be able to squat 1 ½ times your bodyweight and not have a substantial amount of upper body muscle mass.

This is not to say that you don’t need to train arms, and squats alone will cause massive upper body growth. You will still work every body part, but you must focus on squats, deadlifts, and rows—the exercises that develop the legs, hips, and back. Once you master the power movements and are able to handle impressive poundages on those lifts, the strength and muscle you gain will translate into greater weights used in arm, shoulder and chest exercises.

In every gym I’ve ever visited or trained in, there were countless teenage boys blasting away on routines, dominated by arm exercises, in the attempt to build arms like their idols. In the ‘70s, they wanted arms like Arnold Schwarzenegger, in the ‘80s Robby Robinson was a favorite and currently Mr. Olympia, Ronnie Coleman, has set the standard everyone wants to achieve. Unfortunately the 3 aforementioned men as well as most other top bodybuilders have arm development far beyond the reach of the average (or even above average) weight trainer. But arm size can be increased. However, not in the way young trainers, with physiques that don’t even have the faintest resemblance to those of bodybuilders are attempting to make progress. Thin arms, connected to narrow shoulders, fixed to shallow chest, joined to frail backs and skinny legs, don’t need body part specialization programs. Let’s not have skewed priorities. Let’s not try to put icing on the cake before the cake has been baked.


Priorities
Trying to stimulate a substantial increase in size in a single body part, without first having the main structures of the body in pretty impressive condition, is to have turned bodybuilding upside-down, inside-out and back to front.

The typical bodybuilder simply isn’t going to get much meat on his arms, calves, shoulders, pectorals and neck unless he first builds a considerable amount of muscle around the thighs, hips and back. It simply isn’t possible—for the typical drug-free bodybuilder, that is—to add much if any size to the small areas unless the big areas are already becoming substantial.
There’s a knock-on (additive) effect from the efforts to add substantial size to the thigh, hip and back structure (closely followed by upper body pushing structure-pecs and delts). The smaller muscle groups, like the biceps, and triceps will progress in size (so long as you don’t totally neglect them) pretty much in proportion to the increase in size of the big areas. It’s not a case of getting big and strong thighs, hips, back and upper-body pushing structure with everything else staying put. Far from it. As the thigh, hip, back and upper-body pushing structure grows, so does everything else. Work hard on squats and deadlifts, in addition to bench presses, overhead presses and some type of row or pulldown. Then you can add a little isolation work—curls, calf raises and neck work (but not all of this at every workout).


The “Driver”
The key point is that the “engine” that drives the gains in the small areas is the progress being made in the big areas. If you take it easy on the thigh and back you will, generally speaking, have trouble making gains in the other exercises, no matter how hard you work the latter.

All this isn’t to say just do squats, deadlifts and upper back work, quite closely followed by some upper-body pressing work. While such a limited program will deliver good gains on these few exercises, with some knock-on effect throughout the body, it’s not a year after year program. Very abbreviated routines are great for getting gains moving, and for building a foundation for moderately expanded routines. They are fine to keep returning to on a regular basis. The other training isn’t necessary all in the same workout but spread over the week. This will maintain balance throughout the body and capitalize upon the progress made in the thigh, hip and back structure.

Just remember that the thigh, hip and back structure comes first and is the “driver” (closely followed by the upper-body pushing structure) for the other exercises. These other exercises, though important in their own right, are passengers relative to the driving team.


Big Arms
To get big arms, get yourself on a basic program that focuses on the leg, hip and back structure without neglecting the arms themselves. As you improve your squatting ability, for reps and by say 100 pounds, your curling poundage should readily come up by 30 pounds or so if you work hard enough on your curls. This will add size to your biceps. While adding 100 pounds to your squat, you should be able to add 50-70 pounds to your bench press, for reps. This assumes you’ve put together a sound program and have worked hard on the bench. That will add size to your triceps.

If you’re desperate to add a couple of inches to your upper arms you’ll need to add 30 pounds or more over your body, unless your arms are way behind the rest of you. Don’t start thinking about 17” arms, or even 16” arms so long as your bodyweight is 130, 140, 150, 160, or even 170 pounds. Few people can get big arms without having a big body. You’re unlikely to be one of the exceptions.

15 sets of arm flexor exercises, and 15 sets of isolation tricep exercises—with a few squats, deadlifts and bench presses thrown in as an afterthought—will give you a great pump and attack the arms from “all angles”. However, it won’t make your arms grow much, if at all, unless you’re already squatting and benching big poundages, or are drug-assisted or genetically gifted.

As your main structures come along in size and strength (thigh, hip and back structure, and the pressing structure), the directly involved smaller body parts are brought along in size too. How can you bench press or dip impressive poundages without adding a lot of size to your triceps? How can you deadlift the house and row big weights without having the arm flexors—not to mention the shoulders and upper back—to go with those lifts? How can you squat close to 2 times bodyweight, for plenty of reps, without having a lot of muscle all over your body?

The greater the development and strength of the main muscular structures of the body, the greater the size and strength potential of the small areas of the body. Think it through. Suppose you can only squat and deadlift with 200 pounds, and your arms measure about 13”. You’re unlikely to add any more than half an inch or so on them, no matter how much arm specialization you put in.

However, put some real effort into the squat and deadlift, together with the bench press and a few other major basic movements. Build up the poundages by 50% or more, to the point where you can squat 300 pounds for over 10 reps, and pack on 30 pounds of muscle. Then, unless you have an unusual arm structure, you should be able to get your arms to around 16”. If you want 17” arms, plan on having to squat more than a few reps with around 2 times bodyweight, and on adding many more pounds of muscle throughout your body (unless you have a better-than-average growth potential in your upper arms).

All of this arm development would have been achieved without a single concentration curl, without a single pushdown and without a single preacher curl. This lesson in priorities proves that the shortest distance between you and big arms is not a straight line to a curl bar."

Read also the success stories: stronglifts-5x5-success-stories-t8249.html people's arms are getting bigger.