Big biceps

[Subsistence]

Medhi, I was just saying different experts recommend different things to achieve this goal. I think it likely that a programme that focuses on functional strength will take more effort to get big arms out of than a programme that focuses on getting bigger arms and hypertrophy. I may be wrong, but it is at least a legitimate controversy in weightlifting circles with reputable experts on either sides recommending each type of programme for beginners.

I just wished to show that this debate is ongoing and not settled in the weightlifting community, as this forum is exceptionally polarized towards strength training and seem to claim it is the quickest or easiest way to achieve any and everything.

[Bman1]

Mehdi - That was very useful information that makes a lot of sense. Why I sort of see subsistence's point that there might be other ways to get bigger arms, what is the point if you don't have a bigger back, hips, legs, etc. Do we want to look like Popeye with huge forearms and nothing else?

[mjh]

@substinence: I don't think there is any disagreement that a targeted hypertrophy program will make for bigger biceps faster. There is no controversy about which is best (in terms of getting them bigger faster) for biceps, at least not here.

But that's not the point. The point we make here is that bicep curls are not necessary for bicep growth, and that your biceps will grow without them, so long as you attack chins and rows with suitable intensity. They may not grow quite as much or as fast, but the difference is not worth worrying about.

this forum ... seems to claim it is the quickest or easiest way to achieve any and everything.

This is simply not true. You are far more likely to see a realistic understanding about the time and effort required to build muscle here than you are on bodybuilding.com.

[mpetry]

They may not grow quite as much or as fast, but the difference is not worth worrying about.

perhaps this should read "the difference is not worth worrying about if you are lifting to build overall strength" or something. I think that the difference would be pretty important to someone lifting to build a beach body or the like.

[22Alpha]

Never thought my topic would end up being a 5 page intense debate.

I'm a little undecided about curls at the moment. However, mjh, there's one big mistake you made.

In reply to

seem to claim it is the quickest or easiest way to achieve any and everything.

you said:

This is simply not true. You are far more likely to see a realistic understanding about the time and effort required to build muscle here than you are on bodybuilding.com.

Well, OK, so SL may give a more accurate time frame and effort needed to pack on muscle, but that does not answer Subsistence's post of SL claiming that the SL program is the easiest and fastest way to achieve.

[ricepower]

KInda good point. try leg extensions instead or squats for a month or two, see how your quads grow.

The only leg exercises I do is squats & deadlifts yet I have the biggest quads & hamstrings than anyone at the main gym I go to. This has all been growth, they never started this big. I am also still a beginner far from 1.5xBW squat.

In the gym I occasionally frequent I also have the biggest thighs except for this one guy who is an olympic style lifter who can push press more than I can deadlift!

[Mehdi]

Medhi, I was just saying different experts recommend different things to achieve this goal. I think it likely that a programme that focuses on functional strength will take more effort to get big arms out of than a programme that focuses on getting bigger arms and hypertrophy. I may be wrong, but it is at least a legitimate controversy in weightlifting circles with reputable experts on either sides recommending each type of programme for beginners.

I just wished to show that this debate is ongoing and not settled in the weightlifting community, as this forum is exceptionally polarized towards strength training and seem to claim it is the quickest or easiest way to achieve any and everything.

Why do you think/assume that it will take more effort? Where does your thinking comes from? Aside from the fact that you read articles based on Schwarzenegger's book, a guy who did powerlifting (strength training) for years before he switched to bodybuilding. Check: arnold-schwarzenegger-s-strength-stats-t10605.html

Arnold didn't got a big biceps by doing isolation exercise/body part splits, he built a foundation of strength for years first. If you're going to copy his routine, then also copy what he did before he did those routines, which is getting your strength stats up.

Read also: http://stronglifts.com/muscle-gaining-s ... gia-promo/

Now if you don't want to listen, then just do your thing and see how that works for you. But stop recommending stuff to people that a) you're not sure about b) is wrong. Thanks.

[hole]

Mehdi=God

[mjh]

@22alpha: no, I made no mistake.

Subsitinence posted that he feels that stronglifts is touted as the fastest and easiest way to achieve any and everything. In my opinion this is wrong, in the context of this discussion, because I don't often see anyone claim that stronglifts is the quickest or easiest way to build biceps, or any other muscle. It is often described as an efficient way to build strength, but is is seldom described as easy.

[Subsistence]

MJH, look at Medhi's reply to me. He says right out "Why do you think/assume that it will take more effort? Where does your thinking comes from?". It seems clear to me that he is saying his program will yield the more efficient results for bicep growth.

And by easy I didn't mean easy workouts, I just really meant efficient. 'You can do endless barbell curls or start stronglifts and get some real changes!' seems to be the attitude here. No matter what muscles you want to grow.

And when you say "I don't think there is any disagreement that a targeted hypertrophy programme will make for bigger biceps faster." then I am unsure why we would be arguing. I get the impression Medhi is very much contesting this very point, saying that unless you already have a lot of strength as a base and aren't on steroids that a hypertrophy programme is useless. My apologies if I have misinterpreted the point.


Regardless, I've said my piece. I just wanted to make note that some advocate a different path than stronglifts tailored towards this specific goal. People can do their own research and see what they would like to try. I'm not recommending any of the programmes I linked to, I just used them as examples of authoritative sites recommending curls for beginners so it wasn't just one newbie saying it.

[Mehdi]

MJH, look at Medhi's reply to me. He says right out "Why do you think/assume that it will take more effort? Where does your thinking comes from?". It seems clear to me that he is saying his program will yield the more efficient results for bicep growth.

Specific arm work can be a better way to build biceps size depending on YOUR level. You said you were a newbie, based on that getting strength up with heavy compounds is more effective.

unless you already have a lot of strength as a base and aren't on steroids that a hypertrophy programme is useless. My apologies if I have misinterpreted the point.

That's basically it. This has been stressed before: context matters. Many people will give you advice that worsk for them but won't a) they're way more advanced than you b) aren't training naturally. Arnold was on the roids, is a genetic freak, and had massive strength (which most people don't even know he was into powerlifting) before doing the isolation stuff.

[Hwood]

I have been on Stronglifts for about a month now. I love the program, and I understand the theory. I am not trying to put it down, but I am just going to mention a recent experience. The other day my girlfriend mentioned that she thought my biceps looked smaller than before (of course she says my chest and back are looking bigger). I have thought the same thing looking in the mirror as well. I have been doing weighted pull-ups (with 10 lbs.) for 6-10 reps depending which set. Yesterday (after workout A) I threw in 3 sets of hammer curls (good form, not using the shoulder), 12 reps with 35lb. dumbells. This is the first time that I have deviated from the program. Granted, I am early in the program, and my weights are still rather low.

Tomorrow I plan on adding more weight to my pull-ups, but I am still thinking of adding the hammer curls after workout A, at least until it seems to affect my other excercises (blasphemy, I know). Anyways, my question to the people who have been on Stronglifts for a longtime is, does this program build "T-shirt arms"? For those of you with low body fact percentages, how big around is your flexed arm? I know that has a lot to do with the tricep, but I am still curious.

[holvoetn]

What are your stats ?
Height, BW, squat, bench, ohp, deadlift, ... ?

Did you measure your arms, chest, neck, thighs, waist, ... before starting and now ?
How else will you know your arms effectively became smaller ?

My guess is this is perceived from the growth of your chest and back.
Your biceps (and triceps) will not grow at the same rate so it may 'look' as if they became smaller whereas they are growing too.
This is more or less supported by your girlfriends statement:

she thought my biceps looked smaller than before

If you do not measure you can not know.

My upper arms have grown 2cm over the time I have been tracking it (about 10 months) but I honestly admit I have not been very religious with the assistance BW-work (chins, pulls and dips).
It is only since some weeks I am doing weighted pulls and dips.
To compare, over that same period my chest became 11cm larger so it may 'look' like my arms became smaller. I don't care.

[Mehdi]

I have been on Stronglifts for about a month now. I love the program, and I understand the theory. I am not trying to put it down, but I am just going to mention a recent experience. The other day my girlfriend mentioned that she thought my biceps looked smaller than before (of course she says my chest and back are looking bigger). I have thought the same thing looking in the mirror as well. I have been doing weighted pull-ups (with 10 lbs.) for 6-10 reps depending which set. Yesterday (after workout A) I threw in 3 sets of hammer curls (good form, not using the shoulder), 12 reps with 35lb. dumbells. This is the first time that I have deviated from the program. Granted, I am early in the program, and my weights are still rather low.

Tomorrow I plan on adding more weight to my pull-ups, but I am still thinking of adding the hammer curls after workout A, at least until it seems to affect my other excercises (blasphemy, I know). Anyways, my question to the people who have been on Stronglifts for a longtime is, does this program build "T-shirt arms"? For those of you with low body fact percentages, how big around is your flexed arm? I know that has a lot to do with the tricep, but I am still curious.

15"/38cm arms flexed at 165lbs/75kg, body fat around 12% I guess. No direct arm work since years. But people ask me what I do for my arms sometimes.

Obviously if you've been training for some time, and you did a lot of biceps work, and now switch to SL5x5, you might lose some size. Before/after measurements would help to get a more accurate view than just your/your girlfriend impression. The loss in size would be a)because you're training lower rep b)because you're doing less arm work and more work for the rest. c) because the rest got bigger like Holvoetn wrote

The real question that you have to ask yourself if whether you look bigger overal than before. You're asking about T-shirt arms. I don't have to wear a t-shirt for people to notice that I train. They see it when I wear a sweater. Big neck/big shoulders/big back you see that from far.

And again: I'm a just a lightweight.

[killerdude494949]

It will build big arms if you eat enough. The arms that SL will build will look more like a big slab of beef, rather than pumped and shapely (like the kind you see on guys that do tons of high reps on bis and tris.)

If you truly want big arms then I reccomend you intelligently make a few changes. But always make sure that you are progressing on the squat, bench press, deadlift, and press first and foremost.

1.) Swap out pushups on workout A for Close Grip Dips. Keep your body upright, elbows straight back, and stop at parallel. This will minimize any pectoral involvement and hit the triceps hard. Really try to get strong at this movement.

2.) For your chins/pull ups, focus on using closer grips. Emphasize the chin ups over pull ups as well. Try using a V-Bar. Close grip chin ups is great for biceps.

3.) Do barbell/T-bar rows instead of inverted rows. All rows are great for biceps but it is too hard to continuously add weight to inverted rows.

As, you advance, your larger muscle groups will take over your smaller arms. When this happens, you can focus on more direct arm work like DB curls and pressdowns. If you've been training only a month, you don't need them yet.