Deadlift: Shoulder position

[papaganz]

Hello,

Rippetoe (and also Mehdi) claims that the shoulders should be over the bar to minimize the torque of the weight.

But in this source, Dave Tate says it is one of the most common mistakes.
He also says you should train deadlifts in single lifts instead of multiple (such as 5 times) reps.

What is his motivation for this?

[muddy]

On the training, I would say Tate says that because he's talking to advanced and elite trainers, whereas Medhi and Rippetoe are talking to beginners and perhaps intermediates.

On the position, it seems insane to disagree with Dave Tate, but what he says about this makes a lot less sense to me than what Rippetoe says about deadlift anatomy. He talks about this in some detail here, and suggests you go check out the elite lifters to see for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht363HslwnM

From what I can see of filmed elite deadlifters, they seem to do what Rippetoe and Medhi say.

[eLvarouza]

Someone brought this up to Rippetoe and he called Tate and they talked about it or whatever, but Rippetoe doesn't make any disagreements he has with other coaches public. The advice Dave Tate recommends is for powerlifting really not general use. Also I have no idea how the bar will even move on the deadlift if the shoulders are behind it. I'd have to see it. Maybe with sumo?

[izzostrength]

I used to keep my shoulders over the bar and until recently, started puling my shoulders back. I like Tate's version and it helps keep my torso tight. I think there other technical areas to examine other than the shoulders during a deadlift. In other words, I don't think either will make or break your lift.

[Mehdi]

From what I read, Dave Tate's technique would work if you a) are a bigger guy b) train in a suit.

[Rugger]

This is a classic example of why the source needs to be consider when getting training advice. Tate is a legendary powerlifter, just as Rippetoe is a legendary novice strength trainer, disregarding advice from either of them would be stupid, you just have to consider how relevant it is to your individual situation.

[somebody]

Rippetoe's position is based on the fact that the weight will naturally hang below your shoulder once you get it off the floor. Try it and see. If it's heavy enough for you to be deadlifting with it, you literally cannot force it to hang anywhere but where it wants to hang. So his argument is that you should set yourself up directly over the weight, where it's going to end up anyway, because he thinks this is most efficient for force application.

Tate, on the other hand, recommends a traditional powerlifter set behind the bar, which keeps you back on your heels and reminds you to lean back into the lift and open your knees before your hips. It's a coaching cue that doesn't really change the mechanics of the lift at all.

Who's right? They both are. Sorry, but sometimes life is just like that.

Re singles v. sets across, remember that the "set of five" Rippetoe recommends is a full dead stop on the floor instead of the way lots of people do it, touch and go. So it's sort of like a quick set of singles with your hands staying on the bar. Also, he's talking to novices, who really shouldn't be messing around with heavy singles of anything.

Anyway, Westside isn't just singles. It's a lot more complicate than that, with a lot of different exercises at different rep/set schemes. It's an advanced program.

For lifters at that level, Rippetoe advises deadlifting seldom, if ever. He has people doing rack pulls, haltings, Olympic pulls, etc. etc. When he was competing, he never deadlifted except at the meet. This philosophy towards deadlifting carries over into his novice program, where he has people only doing 1x5 from the start.

[Rugger]

The important thing really, is that you're picking up heavy weight. Get some time in over the bar, get your deadlift up, and try some different training methods. Figure out what works best for you, and develop your own opinions, rarely in training is there a "right" way to do anything.

[papaganz]

Thanks a lot guys

[grambo]

Re singles v. sets across, remember that the "set of five" Rippetoe recommends is a full dead stop on the floor instead of the way lots of people do it, touch and go. So it's sort of like a quick set of singles with your hands staying on the bar. Also, he's talking to novices, who really shouldn't be messing around with heavy singles of anything.

Thought this part was important. I see a lot of people bouncing away their deadlifts whereas Rippetoe recommends starting each from a dead stop, re-gripping as necessary etc. Then again you see some elite lifters (Konstantinovs and others) doing 5-6+ reps non-stop, but that is for a specific purpose I guess.

[Rugger]

Re singles v. sets across, remember that the "set of five" Rippetoe recommends is a full dead stop on the floor instead of the way lots of people do it, touch and go. So it's sort of like a quick set of singles with your hands staying on the bar. Also, he's talking to novices, who really shouldn't be messing around with heavy singles of anything.

Thought this part was important. I see a lot of people bouncing away their deadlifts whereas Rippetoe recommends starting each from a dead stop, re-gripping as necessary etc. Then again you see some elite lifters (Konstantinovs and others) doing 5-6+ reps non-stop, but that is for a specific purpose I guess.

I've never seen an elite lifter bouncing a deadlift. I've seen them proceed to the next rep very quickly, but a weight doesn't need to be touching the floor for very long to eliminate any bounce.

[chris7687]

Rippetoe's position is based on the fact that the weight will naturally hang below your shoulder once you get it off the floor. Try it and see. If it's heavy enough for you to be deadlifting with it, you literally cannot force it to hang anywhere but where it wants to hang. So his argument is that you should set yourself up directly over the weight, where it's going to end up anyway, because he thinks this is most efficient for force application.

Tate, on the other hand, recommends a traditional powerlifter set behind the bar, which keeps you back on your heels and reminds you to lean back into the lift and open your knees before your hips. It's a coaching cue that doesn't really change the mechanics of the lift at all.

Who's right? They both are. Sorry, but sometimes life is just like that.

Re singles v. sets across, remember that the "set of five" Rippetoe recommends is a full dead stop on the floor instead of the way lots of people do it, touch and go. So it's sort of like a quick set of singles with your hands staying on the bar. Also, he's talking to novices, who really shouldn't be messing around with heavy singles of anything.

Anyway, Westside isn't just singles. It's a lot more complicate than that, with a lot of different exercises at different rep/set schemes. It's an advanced program.

For lifters at that level, Rippetoe advises deadlifting seldom, if ever. He has people doing rack pulls, haltings, Olympic pulls, etc. etc. When he was competing, he never deadlifted except at the meet. This philosophy towards deadlifting carries over into his novice program, where he has people only doing 1x5 from the start.

They are both right, as you said.

You don't want to actually try and start with the bar in front of you, it will screw up the mechanics of the lift. Starting with the with your shoulders over the bar and then sitting into it before you pull is the compromise between Rippetoe and Tate.

[Mehdi]

Re singles v. sets across, remember that the "set of five" Rippetoe recommends is a full dead stop on the floor instead of the way lots of people do it, touch and go. So it's sort of like a quick set of singles with your hands staying on the bar. Also, he's talking to novices, who really shouldn't be messing around with heavy singles of anything.

Thought this part was important. I see a lot of people bouncing away their deadlifts whereas Rippetoe recommends starting each from a dead stop, re-gripping as necessary etc. Then again you see some elite lifters (Konstantinovs and others) doing 5-6+ reps non-stop, but that is for a specific purpose I guess.

Bouncing makes the lift easier, you can use more weight, good for overload, especially top part of the lift (bottom gets easier). They call this ballistics, good for strength if you know how to use it (meaning don't bounce always, since you can't bounce when doing singles).

[Dada]

Cool article. That trainer kid has some balls! lol

The technique Tate recommends seems to me would be best for sumo deadlifts. I'm having trouble visualizing it with traditional deadlift. Although I may be overthinking it.