Ditching Bench Press

[FilthyMcNasty]

I like the idea of weighted dips and OHP for chest development. I tend to lag in the clavicular head of the pecs and I also want to have that full squared off in the lower quadrants of the pecs.
Given the stresses that BP can put on shoulders etc, and discussions about technique (good and bad) in the Dips/OHP vs BP approach, do any of you guys know of physiological reasons why dropping the BP in favour of these two wont produce maximal gains.
Also I have to use a commercial gym, only me and one other guy ever do weighted dips or OHP (you should see the looks I get for the latter) so it would also be more conducive to my workouts as well.

As always, thanks in advance.
Filth.

[ricepower]

There are many threads with a lots of detailed discussion regarding the merits & problems with the bench press, alternatives etc.

Heres one of them: weighted-push-up-vs-bench-press-t9740.html?hilit=bench%20press%20vs

I think there is another great thread started by tassietaekwon, but I cannnot find it right now.

What I will say to you however is remember that this is not a bodybuilding website, different people develop muscles in different ways and it is impossible for one of us to accurately advise you on how to get the exact body shape you want.

Instead its better to think of your body as a machine, just aim to get it stronger, more powerful, efficient & injury free. Your body will develop muscles in the way that best suits this goal, and you should be contented with that.

I also think some of your ideas are a bit confused. People think of the overhead press as building shoulders & triceps which is why lifters who specialised in this lift without the use of bench variants had nearly flat chests while still being incredibly strong.

Dips are thought of by many to be very stressful on shoulders which is why it was removed from the beginner programme. Dips are also much more tricep dominant that the bench press.

If you are looking for an exercise to give you a massive chest without too much shoulder strain then your good old bench press is probably the best thing for it.

[FilthyMcNasty]

Thanks for taking time to reply. I would contend your assertion that I am confused, I know what I think because I am thinking in and in that there is no confusion for me, likewise I was aware this is not a body-building site, I know that too because I joined it for that reason.

Dips V Pushups http://stronglifts.com/how-to-perform-d ... technique/

Dips are thought of by many to be very stressful on shoulders which is why it was removed from the beginner programme.

You could say the same of squats, this depends on the technique used, also equally true of the BP.

Why did you remove Dips? stronglifts-5x5-official-faq-t11443.html
Also 3 reasons:
Chest pain & clavicle pain is common on Dips.
Dips put your shoulder in an awkward position, many people's shoulders can't take it.
Lack of equipment: bar dips. Bench dips aren't an option since they're worse on your shoulders. Dipping between 2 chairs doesn't work well when adding weight.
....None of these are an issue for me.

http://stronglifts.com/how-to-overhead- ... e/...Today the Overhead Press has lost favor for the Bench Press. Which is a shame, as the Overhead Press is in many ways a better exercise than the Bench Press. That’s why the Overhead Press is part of StrongLifts 5×5 program.
Benefits of The Overhead Press. You can lift more weight with the Bench Press than with the Overhead Press. But the Overhead Press has many benefits over the Bench Press. Some examples:

Full Body. The Overhead Press works your body as one piece. Your trunk & legs stabilize the weight while your shoulders, upper-chest & arms press the weight overhead.
Builds Muscle. Abs & back stabilize the weight. Shoulders, upper-chest & triceps press the weight overhead. The Overhead Press builds the physique of old-time strongman like Eugen Sandow.
Healthy Shoulders. The Bench Press works your front shoulders more than your back shoulders. The Overhead Press works all shoulder heads equally. Alternating the Overhead Press with the Bench Press minimizes risks of shoulder injuries caused by muscle imbalances.

[Mehdi]

I like the idea of weighted dips and OHP for chest development. I tend to lag in the clavicular head of the pecs and I also want to have that full squared off in the lower quadrants of the pecs.

* How much do you weigh?
* How tall are you?
* How long have you been training?
* How much do you Squat/Bench/Deadlift/Press?

From experience I would say you need to gain weight and get stronger first. What people call lack of chest development is often being skinny. Common mistake is trying to solve it using isolation exercises. Best solution is building overall bulk by getting stronger + gaining weight. Answer above questions to get confirmation.

The reason you want to bench it's because the exercise allows you to move the most weight in a pressing motion. More than you'll be able during a oh press, or even a push press. More weight = better. Sure the press hits your chest, but so does a Squat or Deadlift. Chest doesn't get hit as bench or push-ups do.

Dips. Many people - including me - can't do dips without getting some sort of pain, even when done correctly. It's not a technique issue, it's how the exercise stresses your shoulder joint. If you belong to the group who don't get pain during dips, do them. But you might get pain as you do them heavier.

Bench won't stress your shoulders if you do them correctly. Dips stress your shoulders more than bench, even when done correctly.

Bottom line: bench.

[Mehdi]

The articles you linked to are outdated by the way.

[FilthyMcNasty]

The articles you linked to are outdated by the way.

Great, thanks for the clear answer, much appreciated.

[FilthyMcNasty]

The articles you linked to are outdated by the way.

Great, thanks for the clear answer, much appreciated.

Oops, meant to quote the one above this

[ricepower]

The odd thing is that I have had lifelong problems with shoulders/rotator cuff. A severe impingement, unstable joint, possibly some bone spurs too.

Due to having these problems I never did much throwing based sports so had even less muscle on arms and shoulders. I expected weightlifting to really help, but throughout this year of stronglifts most of the exercises be them push ups, bench press, overhead press, cleans, and even squats have all caused painful jamming and shifting in joint often causing limited mobility for days or weeks.

However even though I was no where near strong enough to do a dip when I first tried (I swung about trying to hold the top position!) Dips never caused and discomfort in my shoulders. And to this day I look forward to every time I get to do dips because my shoulders actually feel much better after doing them!

[MaritimeMass]

I have ditched Bench press for dips about a month ago and haven't looked back, dips just feel more like a natural movement that would have real life application. My progression has been great too, I'm feeling confident enough that within the next month I will begin weighted dips.

[tassietaekwon]

Although I am probably well known for going against the grain a little,
in terms of the "essential-ness" of certain exercises, most notably the (low bar back) squat and bench,
in reading your post I suspect that your reasons for wanting to drop bench are probably not the best.

You say that "given the stress BP can put on shoulders".. you do not say that you are actually experiencing shoulder pain? Is this the case?
Although I don't agree with Mehdi that correct technique will ensure that no stress will be put onto your shoulders, I believe that it can help. Also, being consistant with doing shoulder health pre-hab/re-hab exercises can make a difference-
Shoulder dislocates, black-burns, face-pulls, ext. rotations, prone cobra's, scap-wall slides, push-ups-plus etc, have all helped the health of my shoulders. However I still don't bench, for reasons I won't go in to at this time, as I believe they are not particually relevant to this thread.

My guess is that your chest under-development is, as Mehdi said, a lack of body weight and strength. I would stick with BB Bench so long as it is not causing pain. If it is causing pain, try to implement shoulder health exercises that deal with the problem, and make sure that your form is as solid as it can possibly be.
It's also possible that it's genetics, and doing other exercises won't help very much.

Note also, that OHP should be a part of you program whether you bench or not, so really you'll be replacing bench with dips. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just so that you don't have any illusions..

All that being said, if BB bench still continues to be a problem, I think weighted dips are a perfectly suitable alternative. Some people find that they experience pain in the bench, but not on dips.

I really do believe that if your goal is to gain maximal strength (and the size that goes along with it) in minimal time then BB bench is a winner. But I don't believe that you will be doomed to a small, weak chest if you don't BB Bench, either. Also, if you want to get a big BB bench number, you have to BB bench.


Oh, as a last note..
Have you considered DB bench? Although the weight used isn't as high, it's still a great strength builder, is easier on the shoulder, especially if done in a neutral grip (usually not a true neutral, more of a 45 degree), and some people swear that they get better aesthetic results by using DB Bench..
Just a thought.

[Rugger]

Bottom line: bench.

x2

[jfh26]

The reason you want to bench it's because the exercise allows you to move the most weight in a pressing motion.

Except, of course, for the leg press

I must say to the OP that I think you're the first person I've ever heard of who doesn't want to BB bench . If your bench isn't hurting you then there isn't really any reason for you to stop doing it based on what you've said. If you must, however, I must agree with tassietaekwon and suggest DB bench. I have a friend who swears by it as well, and not even for aesthetic reasons. However, last I heard he was BB benching 300lbs before he switched over, so this may have something to do with it.

[FilthyMcNasty]

Guys,

Thanks for all the info and ideas. I'm pretty strong on bodyweight exercises, 40 + press ups and on a good day 13/14 long arm chin ups and at about 90kgs bodyweight . I'm not a newbie to lifting but I have hurt myself thru over ambition in the past, got fed up with it, wanted to quit because "The thing that's supposed to make me stronger made me weaker" but in the end couldn't give up because not lifting is just not me...you know this one right?
So now I'm trying to head off problems,and what I'm trying to get to is this - what muscular advantages will I gain from BP over OHP + Dips (and by this I mean recruitment and not aesthetics). Are there any muscles engaged in the former that I will miss if I drop BP.
I don't believe there are, but I'm asking because of all the good stuff you guys have in your heads.
Thanks.

Tassie - I have "clicky" shoulders and some mobility discomfort, they sound like a bowl of Snap, Crackle and Pop courtesy of 4 years BJJ training. I don't have a medically diagnosed problem, but I don't want one (already got some back issues). I tend to gain size very easily (almost disproportionate) in my back and this has caused imbalances in posture thru years of being uncorrected (rhomboid problems). My physio advised strengthening upper chest. Now your gonna say incline BP right ?, but that emphasises Anterior delt even more than BP and as I need structural balance it leads me to consider Dip + OHP, which I believe will recruit upper chest and the whole shoulder, avoiding development imbalances hopefully. Overall I don't care for T-shirt or beach workouts so my aim for me physically is continued strength gains and "balanced" postured that means I have a strong structural base.

[NorthstarUK]

I switched to weighted dips as an alternative for a couple of months and had no problems, in fact I find I can use more weight than BPing. For example my 5rm for BP is 110kg but I can dip BW (92kg) plus 40kg (132 total)for 1 x 5. And as Mehdi says more weight is more strength and more strength is more muscle.

If you are having some shoulder discomfort try letting your feet touch the floor at the bottom of the movement, to bring you to a gentle, cushioned, halt, (just make sure your not pushing back up off them).

My advice - do both. Alternate, or one as an assistance exercise to the other.

[FilthyMcNasty]

I can use more weight than BPing. For example my 5rm for BP is 110kg but I can dip BW (92kg) plus 40kg (132 total)for 1 x 5

Wow - good numbers, I guess it makes sense as the lower portion of the chest is more powerful when emphasised, but still...good numbers. thanks for the input, will post in a while as to how it went.