Do I need bentover rows?

[Dada]

I am quite sure, yes.
Your CNS needs some time to adjust to the exercises. Adding weight is simply adding stress, it is not a new exercises.
If you change all the time the exercises, your CNS can not follow.

Not sure anymore where I read it (saw it on multiple places) but it was also somewhere over here (can't find it right now).

I agree with H for the most part but can see the other side to some extent also. Personally, I think too many people take the muscle confusion thing to such an extreme that it's a mistake. Small changes, I do agree with though on occasion. I'd say 1/2 of the muscle confusion thing comes from bb magazines trying to sell a new workout every month.

Having been lifting for over 20 years I can say some of the biggest mistakes and wasted time came from adhearing to the muscle confusion idea. I do however believe in changing things up in a planned way or changing / adding something to address a specific problem - i.e. muscle imbalance or whatever.

Here's a few arguments against the theory.

http://fitnessblackbook.com/strength-tr ... o-lifting/

http://www.brookskubik.com/?p=331

http://www.brookskubik.com/?p=327

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Biggest-M ... &id=553415

[mutt]

Muscle confusion does work, but I'm not sure if it does more than t-shirt muscles. Guys just seem to look bigger and slimmer after doing p90x, I've seen several examples of it. How their strength is? no idea.

[Portillo]

Muscle confusion is a bodybuilding technique. Like supersets and all that stuff.

[killerdude494949]

Muscle "confusion" is an overstatement. Building bigger muscles is like tanning your skin. Lie out in the sun, you get darker. Overload a muscle, it gets bigger. Impose stress on the body, it adapts. Do it consistently enough and you will look very "adapted".

I dont think I have to find a new sun or go to a different spot to lie down every time I want to get a tan, so I dont need to change the exercises every time I train. So rediculously simple it makes me want to sock myself in the face when I hear skinnier and less proporotionate guys telling me that I wont grow because I use the same handful of exercises every time.

[Bman1]

Nothing is going to hit the rhomboids as much as rows. I would keep some form of rows in any workout routine.

[Sam277]

Why not do both pull ups and rows? Both work lats, but remember that a muscle is a group of fibres. And these individual fibres attatch to slightly different parts of the body, if you change the angle slightly, you change where the bulk of the workload is done in that muscle group.

Anyway, variation is fun.

[killerdude494949]

Thanks for the advice, but i posted this thread months ago. I've been rowing since then.

[s0ku]

Has anyone heard about an exercise's learning curve, or neural adaption? http://www.exercisebiology.com/index.php/site/articles/why_you_should_not_change_exercises_too_often/

I really don't know enough about this to comment, but it looks interesting enough. In a nutshell, your body has to adapt to an exercise, or learn it, before you you begin to see significant muscular gains. 8-12 weeks. So, if you continually "shock" your muscles with a battery of exercises, you're potentially hindering your muscle growth.

[dylanamus]

From personal experience I have found that rows help to neutralise shoulder alignment, being inately biased towards the front by the emphasis most programs place on the pectorals. Deadlifts and pullups both work the upper back, but influence shoulder alignment much less than rows of any variety. If you insist on removing rowing from your routine, be sure to stay in tune with what your scapulae, pectorals and deltoids are saying to you.

[kali]

hi guys,
so i had this question to ask the forum, associated with this thread.
4 months ago i started lifting, and really didn't know what i was doing. i did machines, as well as the smith machine while half squatting, etc. realizing i needed help, i then i discovered this website, and some others, but i focused mainly on this one, which i felt really gave me the guidance i needed.
so about 3 months ago i started a routine based largely on stronglifts, but with a variation.
basically, i do full squats 5x5, bench 5x5, bent over rows 5x5 (on the days that i do bench), military press 5x5 (usually not on the same day as the bench days), and deadlifts 2x5, and 1 or 2 sets of pull ups on military press days, and thats it, 3 times a week. i am currently avoiding isolation stuff for now, like it says on this site (like bicep curls, etc).
on bent over rows i use both inverted grip to get some extra bicep action in, as well as straight grip.

my logic is that, if i am doing 5x5 on bench for the front of the body for strength, then why give the backside only an endurance routine like high reps on pull ups and inverted rows to failure? why not do 5x5 on the backside, equal to what i just did for the bench, to not only increase raw back strength but also to balance out the joints?

so while this works for me and i dont plan to change my routine, i was curious about the above question. though incidently i did notice mehdi advocates the bill star and glenn pendlay routines which are basically what i was doing without realizing it,for "advanced" people (which otherwise i am not).

anyway, this is my routine and i have gained 30 lbs so far in under 4 months, (5'10'', 142lb to 173lb), i can tell that my back is coming out nicely too, cant complain.
my only limit overall, i think, is that being a thin guy its hard to eat as much as i really should, i know i should eat more.

last workout: squats 160lbs 5x5, bench 160lbs 5x5, military press 85lbs 5x5, bent over rows 150lbs 5x5, deadlifts 220lbs 2x5

[holvoetn]

Bent over rows where in a previous version of SL5x5, so there is no problem at all including them in your schedule.
Overall the exercises you selected are fine, those are the same ones used in SL5x5.
And yes, bench and row go together. Improve one and the other will see some transfer.

Why 2x5 on deadlifts ? Once the weights go up you might find it harder to complete them (then again, in the intermediate and advanced version of Bill Starr/Glenn Pendlay programs it says 4x5 and 5x5 respectively )

[kali]

well, at first it was my grip strength that limited my deadlifts more than the weight, so just 1 set didnt seem like enough.
now that my grip has improved, my strength is now the limiting factor so even 2 sets have started to seem like a lot recently. as a matter of fact yesterday i added 10 lbs to my deadlifts and after 1 set i called it quits. something told me to just stop, and that says a lot as normally i never back off from stuff.
i'm guessing perhaps until i am really advanced i should just shoot for just 1 really serious set for now? we'll see

[holvoetn]

Hundreds/Thousands of people have done this program with success.
According to my perception an equal amount failed because they messed with the program until they were really ready to do so, but they never told anyone.

Until you are capable of squatting approx. 1.5xBW and deadlift 2xBW stick with the program as given. It might save you some frustration

[kali]

thanks, i will do that. 1 set until i can deadlift 2x BW

[holvoetn]

What are your stats BTW ?
BW? height, lifts, ... ?