Front squat replacing back squat

[tassietaekwon]

Alot of trainers say that the front squat provides more benefit for athletes than the back-squat. Also the front squat is quite often prescribed for taller athletes. Although I have, so far, been unable to find any concrete reasons for those two statements. If anyone could shed some light on the issue it would be greatly appreciated.

Also, if a trainee was to decide to switch in front squats using either the SL or SS templates, would further PC work be needed? Glute/ham raises, goodmornings or something along those lines as assistance work?

Or alternatively, if I placed more of an emphasis on the deadlift would that provide a better balance?

Soo...

E.g.

A
Deadlift 3x5
Press 3x5
Front squat 1x5

B
Front squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Deadlift 1x5

Training twice a week, I realise that 3 3x5 deadlift sessions a fortnight might be a bit much.


Any information, experience, thoughts etc. would be appreciated. This is mainly a what-if kind of question, although I do quite like front squats (and deadlifts for that matter) and if there is any compelling reason to switch to them (me being a tall athlete), other than preffering the lift, I would certainly consider it. Guess at the moment i'm just looking at my options.

Oh I guess it's important to mention that I have no desire to become a powerlifter or a strength athlete of any kind. My strength training is simply to improve my athletic performance; mostly in the martial arts.


Thanks everyone.

[bluestreak]

This has been discussed and documented here several times.

Check this
and this
and this

All the above were found by searching front squat; there's plenty more.

Simple answer: back squat is better. If you're really interested in strength, stick with the back squat.

Front squats are easier to learn. I think that's why most people want to do them or are told to do them.

I don't buy the height argument. I'm 195 cms or 6'5", have long legs and squat 1.5 BW (150 kg).

[tassietaekwon]

Thanks for replying bluestreak.

I had read the articles some time ago but I guess I should have re-read them in light of my current questions.


I think that it's statements such as

Simple answer: back squat is better. If you're really interested in strength, stick with the back squat.

that have led to confusion for me.
Why do you simply say that "back squat is better?" I didn't get that feeling from the articles at all. I think that both exercises have their benefits and it's a matter of personal preferance as to which one you choose. Infact the one of the articles stated

"3 reasons to switch to Front Squats:
You’re not a powerlifter. You just want strength.
Lower Back problems. Front Squat are the alternative if you have some.
Posterior Chain emphasis is less important. You’re getting plenty from Deadlifts, Power Cleans, …"

You say that if I am really interested in strength that I should back squat. The article says that unless I am a powerlifter, and if I just want strength, I should switch to front squats.

I can understand that PC strength is a very important thing, but there are other ways to get it other than back squatting. Hence my question about either adding in assitance work or deadlifting more often.

I guess really I should have worded my OP abit differently. Instead of saying "if there's any compelling reason to switch" I should have asked if there was any compelling reason to stick with back squats. Looking at those articles there doesn't seem to be, other than the PC chain dominace, again which is why I asked about deadlifting more or assistance work.

I don't see front squats being easier to learn as a bad thing. I have spent several months now working on my back-squat, and have had to take two-deloads due to form issues. Also I have had a minor amount of lower back and knee pain from poor form. I also suffer extreme frustration with the lift and it can be quite de-motivating. However I listened to people, like you, who say "back squat is better", without really asking why. I think that if I had been front squatting with good form I would actually be alot further along in my strength, due to the time taken working on back squat form and the subsequent deloads.

I'm still planning to stick with the back-squat for the time being. It's been a struggle, and as I said, it's been de-motivating at times, but I really want to nail the form down, just to be able to say that i've done it. And hitting a 1.5bw squat would be nice, too. I've managed an almost BW squat for 3x5 with reasonable form, and a 1.5 would really be an acheivement for me to be proud of.

But maybe after that i'll switch to the front squats.

Anyway your post was much appreciated, it's certainly got me thinking.

[Mehdi]

I need to rewrite those articles, think I was biased towards front squats because I was doing front squats solely at that time (because of back pain history which is now gone).

Reasons not to front squat
* harder on knees
* less weight than back squats
* grip is often limiting factor
* less pc emphasis, can cause knee problems with people already quad dominant (which is the majority)

Even if you are doing extra posterior work, I feel you're limiting yourself if you're not doing back squats. You should go for the exercises that allow you to move most weight.

It seems you want to switch to front squats because you struggle learning how to squat correctly. That's not a good reason imo. And if you'd switch, would make more sense to switch to box squats (which really enforce good technique).

[tassietaekwon]

Thanks for the reply Mehdi, it's really an honour to have the sites creator checking out the thread!


I guess everyone is biased in one way or another. Those back squatting are biased towards that, and the same is true of the reverse it seems.

I guess I can understand not wanting to damage the knees. I'll have to look into the problems caused by front squats so I have a better understanding.
When you say that grip is a limiting factor, do you mean because of the awkwardness or is it a strength issue like with the deadlift? If it's a strength issue like with the deadlift, wouldn't continuing to front squat strengthen your grip?
As I asked before, wouldn't doing other posterior assistance work negate any problems caused by not back squatting. Is there a reason not to focus more on the deadlift as I suggested?

Did you personally have any knee issues while front squatting? How did you retain your PC strength?

I can sort of understand that going for the "big" exercises where you can move the most weight is generally solid logic. I also agree with the general logic that more muscles worked=better.
So why is press > push-press, or bench > dips?

I don't want to seem to be rude or to start some sort of huge debate, but it's just I don't understand why it applies to some exercises and not others?


Yes, I guess I must admit that one of the reasons that I want to switch to front squats is that I'm struggling with my back squat form. Although sometimes it's quite solid other days it just really sucks. I'm just at a point now where I'm questioning where i'm going with my strength training. Originally I just wanted to put on some weight and get stronger for taekwondo. I think that I'm very close to meeting those goals. I have no real desire at this point in time to squat much over 1.5x BW for 3x5. I think after this point (as in, the end of beginner/linear progression) the strength gains will have less and less positive effect on my TKD/HKD training and will simply take up too much of my available training time. So I ask myself- do I spend the next month working on getting my squat form consistent, or do I spend the next month gaining strength, by using the front squat?

It seems there are so many arguments either way and I will continue to research and ask peoples opinions, so that I can get a clearer veiw of my choices. In the meantime I am going to continue to work on my back-squat form. So far the program, as prescribed, has been giving me good strength gains and until I am better informed I will stick with it, as frustrating as it can be!

Again, thankyou so much for taking the time to reply to my post, again it's given me quite abit to think about.

[ricepower]

I have been reading your old front squat articles Mehdi and thinking about front squats too. Just to learn them and do them occassionally as I have a permanent battle with back squat form every session. (My form is good but I have to try REALLY hard) So thought it would be fun to try front or overhead squats a few times to work abdominal core really hard.

I tried it with empty bar a few times, found it extremely hard! A lot of the challenge was getting the clean rack grip correct, and then trying to keep torso straight going up and down was a killer.

I think I might start using front/overhead squats in replacement to my empty barbell warm up for back squats, with no added weight. Just to get used to the movement and strengthen core. It'd be good prep for the future I think If I wanted to train with olympic lifts.

But can I ask if I/Somebody were to drop back squats. Would front squats and romanian deadlifts be a good combination to avoid muscle imbalances?

[AhBen]

Most people are already quad dominant,doing back instead of front squats will accentuate this problem.

[Mehdi]

@tassietaekwon
Thanks.

Knees
I didn't wrote front squats damaged the knees. I wrote they're *harder* on the knees. Yes got some knee pain from front squats but I did crazy stuff like smolov for front squats so I probably asked for it.

The front squat grip is limiting factor because
a) most people won't be able to keep chest up when dong reps (less problem with single), and then forward lean/upper-back rounding/wrist stress/etc starts.
b) you can't tighten upper-back. And tightening upper-back adds a lot of strength to a squat.
c) it's a lot easier to miss the lift because of a)

PC
* I don't know what program you want to do, but let's say it's stronglifts 5x5. Front squatting 3x/week bad idea. How are you going to add deadlifts to this? You just don't have the room for it. So you have to work with ghr/pull-throughs/etc gets too complicate. And remember why you're doing all of this: because you struggle with squat technique. Better to address the cause.

Front squat have their technique anyway. Gripping the bar correctly and keeping chest up is harder than it looks. And you need to push hips back too, but whitout losing the bar.

Press > push press is like comparing squat with quarter squat or deadlift with rack pulls.

Do some box squats if you want to build solid technique. I think box squats are superior to regular squats. And switch to 2x/workouts a week, more time for taekwando.

And I again I do not recommend substituting back squats with front squats. I've stressed this in the ebook. Even if you don't have a squat rack, the steinborn lift is the way to go. Not power clean + front squat.

[Liv92]

@tassietaekwon

Dude your just going to have to suck it up. I'm 183 cm's and I always had trouble squatting. I always thought cause I had long limbs I was just not meant to squat. For very long time I was stuck in the 135-145 weight department (which was embarrassing) and I just could not get the form right. I even kept adding weight with poor form and at 155 pounds I hurt my back and could not squat for like 2 weeks.

I came back after a month and a half after track and started with like 115 pounds and just kept trying to nail form. Before I knew it things started clicking in, and the weight on the bar started getting heavier. Now i'm squatting almost 1.3 x BW for 5x5!!! (210 pounds.) I know i'll get 1.5 x BW (255) soon! so if I can do it, trust me... you CAN do it.

[somebody]

Even olympic lifters back squat, and they are pulling plenty and front squatting already. Granted their back squat is a bit different, but that's another interminable argument entirely. Short answer is there's a broad consensus that some sort of back squat is necessary for foundation strength.

That said, you can try whatever you want. Heck, Pavel has a program that consists entirely of deadlifts and overhead pressing.

[JasonLB]

Tassie, one reason athletes, especially highschool/college athletes, are often trained with front squats to the exclusion of back squats is because the front squat is easier to use in a group setting. Once form is learned, it's pretty hard for anyone to really screw it up too bad. Form has to remain pretty tight or the weight gets dumped, and it's a lift less likely to succumb to the ego. If you've ever seen a high school football player back squat, you know what I mean by ego lifting. Now multiply that x 50, and you begin to see why a lot of coaches are gravitating towards the front squat.

As far as front squats and the posterior chain goes, I think people are over-blowing the danger. Frankly, I used front squats as my main squat variation for a long time while also focusing on deadlifts, rdls, clean/snatch variations, and my posterior chain never lagged behind (not to mention that the front squat, if done correctly, does hammer the shit out of the glutes). That said, I wasn't following a program like SL, so if you are going to follow a program like SS or SL, in which you squat everyday and aren't using a ton of different posterior chain dominant lifts, using the front squat will more than likely lead to imbalances. That and I'm willing to bet money you'd stall rather quickly using the front squat.

But I think the real benefit to using the back squat, especially on a program like SL, is that it has a ton of carryover to every other lift. If you get your low bar back squat numbers up there, your deadlift, front squat, high bar back squat, PC, RDL, etc will all improve. The same can't be said about the front squat. The low bar back squat just gives you more bang for the buck.

[Bluegreyhound]

Oh I guess it's important to mention that I have no desire to become a powerlifter or a strength athlete of any kind. My strength training is simply to improve my athletic performance; mostly in the martial arts.

I have had a quick read here and it seems that most if not all people are against the front squat. So I am going to go against the grain here so that you can properly consider arguments both for and against. The front squat can be a better alternative than the back squat for certain athletes. This includes martial artists. The main reason is specificity:

- Putting the load in out in front will force you to build tremendous core strength, both around the back and in front. As you know, a strong core is king in martial arts (and any contact sport which involves you getting hit from the front).
- There are also additional flexibility requirements in the core/hip and ankle before you can properly build up a strong and deep front squat.

This aside, I don't think that it is completely fair to cite that people are generally quad dominant and hence we should back squat instead of front squat
(because of the greater loading of the Posterior Chain compared to the quads) . The Anterior Chain is a little under-rated these days. Yes, the PC may be more important if your goal is to squat maximal weights, but you need the AC for effective sprinting, cuts on the soccer or football field etc. That said, I think that your should back squat until you have a good foundation (1.5xBW) first then work with front squats, aiming to increase your front squat as a percentage of your back squat. The back squat is simply too good a general strength conditioning exercise to pass up.

[Bluegreyhound]

The low bar back squat just gives you more bang for the buck.

Quoted for emphasis.

[Liv92]

Oh I guess it's important to mention that I have no desire to become a powerlifter or a strength athlete of any kind. My strength training is simply to improve my athletic performance; mostly in the martial arts.

I have had a quick read here and it seems that most if not all people are against the front squat. So I am going to go against the grain here so that you can properly consider arguments both for and against. The front squat can be a better alternative than the back squat for certain athletes. This includes martial artists. The main reason is specificity:

- Putting the load in out in front will force you to build tremendous core strength, both around the back and in front. As you know, a strong core is king in martial arts (and any contact sport which involves you getting hit from the front).
- There are also additional flexibility requirements in the core/hip and ankle before you can properly build up a strong and deep front squat.

This aside, I don't think that it is completely fair to cite that people are generally quad dominant and hence we should back squat instead of front squat
(because of the greater loading of the Posterior Chain compared to the quads) . The Anterior Chain is a little under-rated these days. Yes, the PC may be more important if your goal is to squat maximal weights, but you need the AC for effective sprinting, cuts on the soccer or football field etc. That said, I think that your should back squat until you have a good foundation (1.5xBW) first then work with front squats, aiming to increase your front squat as a percentage of your back squat. The back squat is simply too good a general strength conditioning exercise to pass up.

Well said. No one is saying front squats are bad. But you need to build a solid foundation then worry about the other stuff.

[tassietaekwon]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply. It's been very helpful.

Thanks Mehdi for the further clarification on why you reccomend against front squats r.e. the knees hurting, grip being a limiting factor ect.

Thanks to jasonlb and bluegreyhound for your clear, un-biased opinions. This has helped my understanding alot.

This thread has made me come to several conclusions.

1. That I need to work on my back-squat form or box-squats, and stop looking for an "easy option"

2. If I do want to have a program that includes *insert exercise here* because I believe it is a program for my MA, then I will do so only after building a good base with low bar back squats (say, with a program like SS or SL )

3. If I chose to do a program with Fsquats (after adhering to #2) I would likely need more PC work, but the danger of AC dominance probably isn't as extreme as some SL/SS adherents argue.

4. If I chose to do a program that was based around DL's, front squats might be the way to go??--- This was one of my original questions although I guess asked in a funny way. I know I don't really need to be wondering about this now but I'm still curious and would like to put all the issues raised in my OP to rest.

Again, thankyou to everyone for your replies.