Is NOT squatting bad?

[JasonLB]

I see what you mean. I guess the problem is that once you go down that road with a beginner, especially a very young beginner, what often happens is " workout routine ADD." I know because it happened to me: I got so caught up in this or that piece of advice that I ended up hopping from one program to the next, one philosophy to the next, etc. Had I just stuck to the basics, I would have had way more progress. Sometimes too many options are just a bad thing. And I agree with you, sometimes that kind of talk comes off as being ridiculously dogmatic, but sometimes a blunt and overly simplistic answer like "shut up and squat" is what a beginner needs to hear in order to get there minds off six pack abs and endless sets of curls, not because having abs and big arms aren't worthy goals, but because they'll get those things faster by getting stronger, and they'll get stronger faster if they focus on the basics for a little while without worrying about minutia.

[killerdude494949]

I understand that this is an online blog and the current program is somewhat "set in stone" because it is not a private appointment so the program is general so anyone can use it to build a foundation regardless of your goals and once you are done with SL you know what to do. I agree with you, but I also think that it is a good idea to tailor the program to meet your goals faster. Just like how you can tailor your diet.

[jfh26]

I agree with you, but I also think that it is a good idea to tailor the program to meet your goals faster.

Yes, but to repeat, most of the people who do the 5x5 program don't know enough about strength training to do this effectively. Myself included. Generally speaking, "tailoring the program" in most cases usually refers to replacing squats with leg press, or replacing chin-ups with curls, because people see everyone in the gym doing this. Point being, beginners need something simple and effective, and should be focusing on compound exercises to build a solid and balanced muscular foundation before trying to overthink their training and come up with a less effective routine on their own (yes, I can personally attest to doing this! ) Simply speaking, SL5x5 does just that. It's simple, it's extremely effective, and if you "shut up and squat," you will get great results. There's simply no reason not to. If someone wants to modify it for themselves, they can go for it. Good for them. But the program works extremely well as written, so why not build up a base using this program and then develop a more specific-to-you routine when you actually have a solid muscular foundation to work with as well as some idea of what you're doing? (Note that question was rhetorical - not directed at you specifically )

[RobCosimo]

so Rob, what is your advice to the OP? He's 15 and doesn't want to squat or deadlift because he doesn't like the exercises and finds them difficult to do.

My advice would come from two places: 1.my own experience, 2) what i've researched.

He wants to gain muscle and lose fat. These aren't things I can help with much from personal experience, because i've never wanted to lose fat, and gaining muscle was always a nice bonus for me, within reason, since I want to get stronger without getting stronger 'by any means necessary' (ie, my getting really big or fat). I have gained muscle, though, since training, that's for sure, but not heaps.

From my personal experience, though, I would say to him find something you love doing that you think will work and get obsessed with it. There are people who go to the gym because they feel obliged, or like it's a chore: these people seem to hardly ever get far. Then there are people who go because they love it. These people seem to succeed. just look at the training logs of the people who love lifting and get excited by it: they're the ones with the biggest gains, regardless of their programs.

I wouldn't say 'shut the fuck up and squat' for these reasons: 1)who the hell am I to say that? I've been training a few years, I'm hardly strong, so I can't justify that black and white advice. 2) If the choice for the guy is to either do what he likes doing in the gym, or not going at all because he thinks he has to squat or deadlift, which he hates, I think it's much, much better for him to just go to the gym and be active.

I could, however, say that many good strength trainers, like Rippetoe or course, would tell him to shut the fuck up and squat. But that's not the same thing as telling him to myself. I could tell him that high intensity training seems to be the best thing for fat loss, and he should read people like Cosgrove etc. But then, all i'm telling him is stuff filtered through other people. Like much of you, i'm sure.

[Mehdi]

From my personal experience, though, I would say to him find something you love doing that you think will work and get obsessed with it. There are people who go to the gym because they feel obliged, or like it's a chore: these people seem to hardly ever get far. Then there are people who go because they love it. These people seem to succeed. just look at the training logs of the people who love lifting and get excited by it: they're the ones with the biggest gains, regardless of their programs.

You've been training for several years from what I get. The OP just got started, is 15 and has no experience. That's why he should "shut up and Squat", hating an exercise (most likely because it's hard to do or learn) is never a good thing. The things you should do in life are often hard and not meant to be fun. Many people will confirm that the exercises you used to hate, become your favorite ones if you stick with them. Getting better at something you suck is a personal victory.

I often don't feel like going to the gym, but I'm going anyway and that's why I always feel good afterwards whether I felt like going that day or not. Are you really saying you always feel like waking up early, cooking, going to the gym, etc? Or are you only doing it when you feel like it? This isn't meant as a personal attack. If you really enjoy it every single time, great for you (although then I'd wonder if you're really pushing your limits every time). But I know that's not the reality of most people.

I'm sure there are freaks out there who got big, ripped & strong without doing Squats. Mike Tyson didn't Squat? Great. Are you Mike Tyson, one of the best boxers who ever lived? Gymnasts don't Squat? Jim at beastskills.com does. Read also this: article-by-coach-rippetoe-t19248.html

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The reason I stress to follow the program as laid out is that most people change programs without knowing what they're doing, so they end up not getting what they want. Do the program for a couple of months as laid out, then other standard programs that are proven to work. Once you got experience, you can experiment.

And I know things aren't that black & white, but gray shades cause confusion. See the point of view of people asking questions, put yourself in their shoes, really try to understand their situation and what they're trying to accomplish. Then ask yourself what is the best thing that they should based on your experience so far. Do you really think a 15y old who just got started can drop Squats because he hates them?

[jpez]

About the "shut up and squat" thing I wasn't to enthused about it when I first saw it on this forum. I remember thinking WTF kind off advice is that? Saying that to a beginner who doesn't know "squat" about strength training would most likely scare him off or make him think he's dealing with a bunch of meatheads, which is far from the truth. Maybe you know the benefits of squatting but a beginner doesn't. Isn't it much better to say squatting is beneficial for so and so reason? The only way I see "shut up and squat" justified is if your coach says it, meaning you have put all your faith and training into his hands and you try to get out of squatting for some reason and then he tells you to "shut up and squat".

[jfh26]

Saying that to a beginner who doesn't know "squat" about strength training would most likely scare him off or make him think he's dealing with a bunch of meatheads

For that to be true, we would have to be saying "shut up and curl"

[mjh]

About the "shut up and squat" thing I wasn't to enthused about it when I first saw it on this forum.

Well, to be fair, you rarely see "shut and up squat" put that bluntly on this forum.

It's far more likely to be "shut up and read the blog articles on squats, and read starting strength, and start with light weight and pay close attention to form and post a video if you're unsure... because they really are one of the best lifts...." and so on.

[jpez]

Well, to be fair, you rarely see "shut and up squat" put that bluntly on this forum.

For sure! This forum rocks!

[RobCosimo]

From my personal experience, though, I would say to him find something you love doing that you think will work and get obsessed with it. There are people who go to the gym because they feel obliged, or like it's a chore: these people seem to hardly ever get far. Then there are people who go because they love it. These people seem to succeed. just look at the training logs of the people who love lifting and get excited by it: they're the ones with the biggest gains, regardless of their programs.

You've been training for several years from what I get. The OP just got started, is 15 and has no experience. That's why he should "shut up and Squat", hating an exercise (most likely because it's hard to do or learn) is never a good thing. The things you should do in life are often hard and not meant to be fun. Many people will confirm that the exercises you used to hate, become your favorite ones if you stick with them. Getting better at something you suck is a personal victory.

I often don't feel like going to the gym, but I'm going anyway and that's why I always feel good afterwards whether I felt like going that day or not. Are you really saying you always feel like waking up early, cooking, going to the gym, etc? Or are you only doing it when you feel like it? This isn't meant as a personal attack. If you really enjoy it every single time, great for you (although then I'd wonder if you're really pushing your limits every time). But I know that's not the reality of most people.

I'm sure there are freaks out there who got big, ripped & strong without doing Squats. Mike Tyson didn't Squat? Great. Are you Mike Tyson, one of the best boxers who ever lived? Gymnasts don't Squat? Jim at beastskills.com does. Read also this: article-by-coach-rippetoe-t19248.html

###

The reason I stress to follow the program as laid out is that most people change programs without knowing what they're doing, so they end up not getting what they want. Do the program for a couple of months as laid out, then other standard programs that are proven to work. Once you got experience, you can experiment.

And I know things aren't that black & white, but gray shades cause confusion. See the point of view of people asking questions, put yourself in their shoes, really try to understand their situation and what they're trying to accomplish. Then ask yourself what is the best thing that they should based on your experience so far. Do you really think a 15y old who just got started can drop Squats because he hates them?

I try to push myself to the limits, but if I don't who cares? It's like, either do it 100% or not at all, and that's what I disagree with. Not everyone wants to be the strongest person they can - all I want is to get stronger as I age, rather than weaker. So why do I need to push myself to the absolute limit, do the the 'best' exercises all the time etc...it's just not necessary for me. Yes, people have to do stuff they don't like all the time - but seriously, is squatting that important? Is it life or death? What's wrong with just getting a bit stronger, is that so wrong? Should my 65 year old mother not bother to do any weight-resistance exercises for her bone health if she's not going to do back squats?

The OP is 15, so pretty much anything that stresses his body physically will make him stronger (although he didn't even say anything about strength in his first post - he could do the ghetto workout to build muscle and lose fat quite effectively).

Like I've said repeatedly: SQUATS ARE GREAT/THE BEST. But there are other ways to stress the body into getting stronger. Maybe not really really strong, but stronger.

Yes, I really think a 15yr old can drop squats because he hates them. I really don't see how that can't be the case. It's just an exercise.

[FilthyMcNasty]

http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/site/?p=2078

[MDR2]

Yes, I really think a 15yr old can drop squats because he hates them. I really don't see how that can't be the case. It's just an exercise.

Following your logic there is no point in doing any exercise that might seem challenging. Or hard, or heavy, or for that matter beneficial. So he hates squats, ok. Next session he is going to do deadlifts instead, but wait those are hard too, so those won't be put in the program... continue down the line of good exercises and pretty soon the work out will only be bench pressing, curling, and machines. And all of these will only be done at a relatively low intensity otherwise they would be "hard". The next thing you know he will not be showing up at the gym anymore because he never got any results from all his "effort". Training done. This is a mindset problem here.

Squats are not an unreasonable exercise. They are not unreasonably hard. They are extremely productive though.

BTW I used to hate bench pressing because I was so weak at it. I was so weak I hated working out at all actually. I'm not overly strong at it now but gong from too weak to competent really changed my perspective on it. Maybe that's the case with the OP and squats.

[mpetry]

Yes, I really think a 15yr old can drop squats because he hates them. I really don't see how that can't be the case. It's just an exercise.

Following your logic there is no point in doing any exercise that might seem challenging. Or hard, or heavy, or for that matter beneficial. So he hates squats, ok. Next session he is going to do deadlifts instead, but wait those are hard too, so those won't be put in the program... continue down the line of good exercises and pretty soon the work out will only be bench pressing, curling, and machines. And all of these will only be done at a relatively low intensity otherwise they would be "hard". The next thing you know he will not be showing up at the gym anymore because he never got any results from all his "effort". Training done. This is a mindset problem here.

Squats are not an unreasonable exercise. They are not unreasonably hard. They are extremely productive though.

BTW I used to hate bench pressing because I was so weak at it. I was so weak I hated working out at all actually. I'm not overly strong at it now but gong from too weak to competent really changed my perspective on it. Maybe that's the case with the OP and squats.

i think you are totally misinterpreting what rob is saying. he's saying that just because squats are one of the best exercises, someone whose goal is not to get as strong as possible as quickly as possible doesn't need to do them; he is NOT saying that there is no point in doing them. two very different things.

[jfh26]

i think you are totally misinterpreting what rob is saying. he's saying that just because squats are one of the best exercises, someone whose goal is not to get as strong as possible as quickly as possible doesn't need to do them; he is NOT saying that there is no point in doing them. two very different things.

I think you are totally misinterpreting his interpretation of what Rob is saying

Rob blatantly said that someone should be able to drop an exercise if they hate it. Well of course, they are completely entitled to do whatever the hell they feel like. But MDR2 was pointing out that that is a bad mindset for someone who wants to make gains. If you drop squats because you hate them/they're too hard, what's to stop you from dropping deadlifts? Those are hard, after all. And overhead press? Lifting all that weight over your head is really tough, so why not drop that too? And as he said, based on the profile of a typical teenage guy, this mindset will 9 times out of 10 result in a routine of bench, curls, and machines because they're the "fun" or "easier" exercises. And maybe a little leg press to keep the lower body working.

Doing squats and deadlifts and other hard exercises build the mental discipline needed to make gains with your training. Plain and simple. If you don't want to do hard exercises, then StrongLifts probably isn't the best place to be seeking advice or a routine. I hope you guys understand this side of the argument. It's simply a bad habit, especially for inexperienced lifters, to get into. And believe me, I know, because I did it too.

[atypical1]

I think that we are losing focus on what the OP asked. The question he asked was in reference to some very specific exercises and he asked this question:

But I hate doing squats, if I continue to just do bench press, overhead press, inverted rows, push ups, pull ups, chin ups, will I be fine?

Or is Squats very necessary? Thanks

So no, given that specific range of exercises (bench, OHP, IR's, Push ups, pull ups, and chin ups) he would not be "fine" and squats are a necessary part of this program and any serious strength or bodybuilding program. Now, if he had asked about substituting squats for lunges we could have had a discussion with regard to squatting or lunging but that wasn't his question.

The OP does get into how he doesn't think he's doing squats properly and I wonder if that could be part of the problem that he's having with not liking squats. It's hard to like something that you're not good at and especially if your form is not correct. Now by "good" I don't mean someone who can lift heavy but someone who can actually perform squats properly.

So now we have 4 pages of discussion about whether or not squats are important when we should have been exploring why he didn't like squats and finding out more about his goals (and I'm just as guilty).

james