is the answer to our problems within?

[pookle]

i mean, literally, within. like in our bodies, our blood.

what do you guys think of these posts?

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17008
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60002

when i started weight lifting i wanted to get bigger because no one respected me, and i didnt get any attention from girls. a year ago i used to be really bad talking with people, but now im fine. i converse fine and i'm a nice person, but women will not give me any attention.

i feel fine sitting behind my computer all day but i can also "Do well" out in the real world, but if i had a choice i'd stay behind my computer. it's just my where i am most comfortable. i think that's fine, because i think everyone should BE WHO THEY ARE.

but maybe... if you dont *like* who you are, maybe you can CHANGE who you are?? if "Pook" is right, a man with a lot of T is going to have the urge to go out and have fun, start conversations, all the qualities that people like etc.

after all, regardless of what i do, i am not going to lay the hot chick sitting next to me in class. instead she is staring and trying to talk to the muscular guy sitting 2 seats ahead. i know that if i approach, say hi, ask for the number, w/e then i have CHANCE, but that guy doesnt have to do anything whatsoever.

ya i know "you gotta be positive" etc. i know i CAN lay the hot chick in class, but that takes WORK. the "hot guy" doesnt need to WORK, he just needs to stand there.

people think that when a guy goes from skinny to muscular, he is confident because when he looks in the mirror he SEES HE HAS NEW MUSCLE ON HIM. but according to Pook, these people are confusing the cause and the effect, the new muscle CHANGES who you are, biologically and mentally. after all, like he said "we are flesh and blood creatures." he also says that women (and even men) can "sniff out" the guy with high testosterone in the room. this is true imo. when the "jerk" or "jock" walks in, you know who it is. maybe it is how they carry themselves or something, but whatever it is you know who it is.

of course, my end goal is to be somewhere around 200 lbs, 190 w/e. i want to see if it changes me... im HOPING that it changes me.

so as i go to my "goal," i will do what Pook did. i will eliminate all women from my life, work on improving myself, and indulge myself in my work and hobbies.

so what about you guys who have already gained a lot of muscular bodyweight? bluestreak are you reading? has your state of mind and your actions/impulses changed? do you have the urge to "go out and play ball" as pook put it and "scream at the other 'stupid drivers' (yes he said this )"

what about attention from women? do you notice more women checking you out? i'm interested in EVERYONES opinion

those articles have been posted on multiple sites, and most of the replies are "pook is bs" and "this article is NOT true," but what do you guys think?

[mjh]

a while back we had a more extreme interpretation of this kind of idea:
http://stronglifts.com/forum/post202600.html?hilit=testosterone%20prison#p202600

My feelings about this article are similar. I think it's true that in general more muscle will make a man more confident, but I don't accept that he will neccesarily start acting all that much differently because of it. Nor do I agree that so-called masculine traits (aggressive ones, generally) are the epitome of "manly". The guy that is noticed when he comes into a room... that's often because he is acting in a way that makes him noticed ie: obnoxiously. In my book a guy who screams at another driver is a dickhead, full stop.

There were a bunch of hot girls at my school, and yes, they wanted to hook up with the jocks. Did it bother shy skinny mjh? Not much, because they were just like the jocks... shallow, egotistical, mean spirited, often not too smart. Nor did I want to be a jock, because I did not care less about being like them.

Sure, "laying" one of those hot girls would have been nice, but I'm much more grateful for the longer term relationships with less-hot, but by no means unattractive, girls... in which we taught each other how to have great sex. When real and deep affection - more commonly known as love - is involved, the girl you're with is the hottest chick in town.

Look past the hot girl and you'll see dozens of girls that are not ugly, are often more intelligent and interesting, and have far greater potential as rewarding emotional and physical mates. (Also, I know from experience that a hot girl can be totally nothing in bed, and an average looking one an absolute rocket).

Articles like this, and others like it, annoy me because they imply we all (men, I mean) want to be the high school alpha male our enitre lives, and if we don't, it's because we're chemically, evolutionary or psychologically inferior.

Well fuck that. I am confident, but humble. I value intellect, wisdom and integrity. I meet girls by talking to them, listening to them, showing real respect to them and interest in them. I have never in my adult life been in a fight, or screamed at another person. Yet am I some inferior, weak, pitiable man? Not in the slightest.

[mjh]

and from the thread I linked to, I'd like to share some insight from rugger:

I hate to break it to you, but gaining 25 lbs of muscle wont guarantee you the poon if you suck as a person.

[bluestreak]

I met my wife around 15 years ago. We were best friends for years - we built a really strong relationship on *gasp* talking, spending time with each other, etc. We got married 9 years ago - I was a 6'5", 160 lbs software developer with acne that owned a house and made more money then his parents. There are lots of reasons why she initially wanted to be with me and even better reasons for why she wanted to stay with me and ultimately marry me.

Do I regret not having picked up and slept with 10s or hundreds of women? No. That is just a phase in life which went by quicker for me then for others. In my view, the ultimate goal in getting with someone is having kids, raising them well together WHILE ALSO keeping a strong, happy relationship.

I've lived my life as I've wanted. I've always had an aversion to people telling me what to do.

As for my lifting and weight/strength gain: it had nothing to do with attaining a physique that other people would find attractive. The physical changes are just a cool bonus and a sign that I'm progressing but, ultimately, it's something neither I nor my wife care much about.

Sure, my attitude has changed. I am confident when I enter the gym and am not afraid of lifting a big weight. It helped me rebuild my confidence after an absolutely demoralizing experience, in my previous job, where I lost my sense of worth and lost faith in my abilities. Since then, I've been busy succeeding in my career again, improving my family life/marriage, etc. This year is shaping up to the best year ever.

As for my body weight it means nothing to me, now that I'm no longer painfully weak/thin. For some reason, all my strength, weight and gains are of far greater interest to everyone else I meet, then to myself. It gets rather uncomfortable when people talk about it (especially when I'm getting changed... yeah, I know my pecs have developed, shoulders are broader, thighs are big - I'm about to take off my shorts so no more comments please)

Does the testosterone affect me, yeah maybe. Sure, I can say that it makes me more horny and aggressive but I've proven to myself, many times over, that the attitude I CHOOSE has a much greater affect. At the moment I choose to have a confident mindset, to walk tall, to live for a challenge, never tell myself I can't do something, etc, etc. But I'm still a nice guy - the type that helps a little old lady carry the groceries to her car or that will bend-over-backwards to help those that ask for help (i.e. the guy at the gym that wants to train with me and start doing Stronglifts).

pookle - my only piece of unsolicited advice to you is to spend more time doing, less time reading. Want to get strong? Get in the gym, work hard. Want to meet women? Put yourself out there, etc, etc.

Enough from me, I'm off to bed.

[Mehdi]

I'm a big fan of Pook's work.

You seem confused. First you say it's fine to sit behind your computer all day. Then you say if you don't like who you are, maybe you can change who you are. What is it then? Also: why would you need more testosterone before you can change? Why not change now if that's what you want.

Famous quote from Fight Club "Self-improvement is masturbation, self-destruction is what we're after".

There's a lot of limiting beliefs in your post:
* "women will not give me any attention"
* "regardless of what i do, i am not going to lay the hot chick sitting next to me in class"
* "she is staring and trying to talk to the muscular guy sitting 2 seats ahead"

I'd recommend daily affirmations that are the opposite of your current belief:
* "women give me attention all the time: they always approach me and start talking to me"

Your questions. I'm 160lbs 5'8", so light weight by all standards, my experiences:
* Some women are indeed attracted to muscular men and will hit on you for that reason.
* Some women don't like it, but they always like it after a while.
* The majority of women doesn't care. It's a bonus, but it's never what convinced them to be with you.

Many, many men believe that looks matter when it comes to women. I used to believe that too so I figured years ago: if that does the trick, ok well I'll work on it. And yes it did help, but I still didn't got the results I was looking for. That's when I understood something else was going on. Think of all those "ugly" guys who are with hot girls.

If you want real change, inner game is what you need. What changes you on the inside, will change you on the outside. Of course the opposite is also true, so lifting weights can help:
* people say you look great, so you start believing you look great
* strength training teaches you determination, persistence, etc, traits that are attractive
* etc

But it can also mess you up. There are lots of guys out there who become obsessed about their looks, causing low self esteem/lack of confidence/etc. Imo testosterone is over rated. I know big guys who are wuss with women.

Inner game is where it's at: self-confidence. And screaming at "stupid" people in traffic is not a sign of dominance or whatever, it's a sign of weak character (lack of self-control). Real men are leaders, and you can't lead others if you can't control yourself first.

There were a bunch of hot girls at my school, and yes, they wanted to hook up with the jocks. Did it bother shy skinny mjh? Not much, because they were just like the jocks... shallow, egotistical, mean spirited, often not too smart. Nor did I want to be a jock, because I did not care less about being like them.

Sure, "laying" one of those hot girls would have been nice, but I'm much more grateful for the longer term relationships with less-hot, but by no means unattractive, girls... in which we taught each other how to have great sex. When real and deep affection - more commonly known as love - is involved, the girl you're with is the hottest chick in town.

Look past the hot girl and you'll see dozens of girls that are not ugly, are often more intelligent and interesting, and have far greater potential as rewarding emotional and physical mates. (Also, I know from experience that a hot girl can be totally nothing in bed, and an average looking one an absolute rocket).

I agree with you:
* "less attractive" girls can become more attractive over time because of their personality
* "hot" girls can become less attractive over time because of their personality

Let's just not overgeneralize. There are less attractive girls with bad personalities and there are hot girls with great personalities. If you believe that all hot girls are shallow, mean, etc then they will all be.

[mjh]

I recommended in the "testosterone makes the man" thread I linked to, and it's worth another plug:

Manhood, by Steve Biddulph

another link and source here: http://www.stevebiddulph.com/manhood.htm

[Jerzi78]

It's total BS that skinny guys can't pull "Hot Girls"

If a girl wants to talk to me because I look hot or because I have muscles she can go sit in the stupid pool with all the rest of them, I'd take the less attractive girl any day.

If any guy thinks they need to have big muscles or a big penis to feel confident around girls so they WANT you without even saying a word to them has a deep psychological problem that should be taken care of first.

[pookle]

haven't been able to check up been eating like crazy

thanks a lot for all your insight it's helpful. one thing though about sitting on the computer... i just like being alone. i like weight lifting and swimming, and golf. but i like to even play golf alone. being around other people isn't "for me" really. i say this is "good" because, like pook describes, the "nice guy" will go out and do things for the GIRL, like watch chick flicks, and go get drunk and dance. even if he doesn't like these activities, he does them anyways to make girls happy. i don't like doing these activities, and yes i've tried, but when i hear the word "fun" the first thing on my mind is going to the pool and swimming by MYSELF, the last thing is going to a party and grinding with chix.

and so i thought, obviously me not being a "sexualized being," maybe if i did get "huge" that i would have these urges to go out and have fun with other people. Even pook said that before he would feel happy sitting behind his computer, but after getting big he no longer feels comfortable there, he just wants to go out and play ball.

that's why pook's writing somewhat excites me, but i can't see why people like Jerzi get very defensive at posts like this while it actually makes me happy. Jerzi are you a skinny guy like me?

[Mehdi]

haven't been able to check up been eating like crazy

thanks a lot for all your insight it's helpful. one thing though about sitting on the computer... i just like being alone. i like weight lifting and swimming, and golf. but i like to even play golf alone. being around other people isn't "for me" really. i say this is "good" because, like pook describes, the "nice guy" will go out and do things for the GIRL, like watch chick flicks, and go get drunk and dance. even if he doesn't like these activities, he does them anyways to make girls happy. i don't like doing these activities, and yes i've tried, but when i hear the word "fun" the first thing on my mind is going to the pool and swimming by MYSELF, the last thing is going to a party and grinding with chix.

and so i thought, obviously me not being a "sexualized being," maybe if i did get "huge" that i would have these urges to go out and have fun with other people. Even pook said that before he would feel happy sitting behind his computer, but after getting big he no longer feels comfortable there, he just wants to go out and play ball.

that's why pook's writing somewhat excites me, but i can't see why people like Jerzi get very defensive at posts like this while it actually makes me happy. Jerzi are you a skinny guy like me?

I won't watch chick flicks or do stuff I don't like just to make other people happy. She can do that with other people if she wants. Your own happiness is more important than someone else's. Actually, I don't even to be with someone who thinks otherwise.

You're waiting for external changes to solve internal problems. The solution is within. What are you waiting for? Just go out & do it.

[markg]

I don't think there is anything wrong with going to watch a film your wife wants to see but you don't. You can enjoy being with her and she will appreciate your actions. It is possible to enjoy the experience if you are open to new things and do not judge the scenario as being a 'bad' thing before you are even there.

Most films at the cinema will have some good parts, some funny scenes etc. Writing off something before you have seen it is easy to do but probably not very beneficial. Putting things into categories and saying 'i don't like x type of thing and will never see or take part in that for the rest of my life' is limiting and judgemental with the likelihood of over generalising.

Go for the experience and enjoy what happens without preconceptions. There is nothing I wouldn't do if my wife or daughter's happiness was at stake. Obviously some situations are trivial and you can't pander to others' needs above your own all the time; that leads to misery for you and the others involved. Putting others first sometimes and considering their needs as well as your own is no bad thing. It is rewarding in itself and can promote your own happiness rather than doing the opposite.

Yes, I would be equally happy if my wife went to the 'chick flick' with a friend, leaving me to my own devices but it's no big sacrifice to go with her. I think the balance is the key. Putting someone else's needs before your own on a full time basis is a waste of effort. It is impossible to 'make' someone else happy. We are each responsible for our own happiness, but if you have that, you can share it and enjoy sharing it.

[Mehdi]

I don't think there is anything wrong with going to watch a film your wife wants to see but you don't. You can enjoy being with her and she will appreciate your actions. It is possible to enjoy the experience if you are open to new things and do not judge the scenario as being a 'bad' thing before you are even there.

Most films at the cinema will have some good parts, some funny scenes etc. Writing off something before you have seen it is easy to do but probably not very beneficial. Putting things into categories and saying 'i don't like x type of thing and will never see or take part in that for the rest of my life' is limiting and judgemental with the likelihood of over generalising.

Go for the experience and enjoy what happens without preconceptions. There is nothing I wouldn't do if my wife or daughter's happiness was at stake. Obviously some situations are trivial and you can't pander to others' needs above your own all the time; that leads to misery for you and the others involved. Putting others first sometimes and considering their needs as well as your own is no bad thing. It is rewarding in itself and can promote your own happiness rather than doing the opposite.

Yes, I would be equally happy if my wife went to the 'chick flick' with a friend, leaving me to my own devices but it's no big sacrifice to go with her. I think the balance is the key. Putting someone else's needs before your own on a full time basis is a waste of effort. It is impossible to 'make' someone else happy. We are each responsible for our own happiness, but if you have that, you can share it and enjoy sharing it.

Why would you waste 2hours of your life doing something that you know you don't like? Lots of people think egoism is wrong. Let's turn the roles. You like weight lifting, she doesn't. Would you expect her to do, or even try, weight lifting just because you like it? Even though she told you she doesn't want to try it all?

So I sacrifice my happiness by going through hell for 2 hours to make her happy. And she does weight lifting which she doesn't like just to make me happy. And now we have 2 unhappy people together, but hey we sacrifice, we're in love.

I get your point about being open to new experiences, completely agree with that. But if you know they don't like something, you shouldn't force it on others. And you're not an egoist if you don't want to do that.

This is how a lot of relationships end: by putting expectations on others. "You have to do this because you are my boy/girlfriend/husband/wife. And if you don't, I'll get mad". It starts with a stupid movie but continues to bigger things over time. You just can't expect of 1 person to fill all your needs. And you don't need to do every single activity together.

More on this:
* awareness by anthony de mello
* steve pavlina's podcast #22 http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2009/0 ... tionships/
* spiritual polyamory by mystic life

[markg]

I guess I'd have to admit in this case that I don't dislike chick flicks as much as my wife would hate weightlifting

If I was asked to do something like...erm...tattoo my own face with a rusty needle, then even if it was my wife's favourite hobby ever I would have to politely decline. With most things it isn't so cut and dried that you know in advance whether you will like something, unless you have experienced the exact same thing in the same circumstances before. I read something a while back by one of the new age guru/philosophers who are getting so popular these days. He said his big secret was, "I don't care what happens". In other words, just go with the flow, don't judge things or have expectations of how something will go or how you will like it. Rusty needles are still a no no, even with that in mind

Coincidentally I ordered Awareness a couple of days ago and look forward to reading it.

Luckily for me my wife is considerably more easy going than the types of people who end up breaking up because the other didn't go to a movie with them (etc.) and I guess I just wouldn't mind watching a chick flick now and then! She doesn't even ask me though - why bother when she has friends who she knows will love it and she can also get the chance to socialise with someone else.

I'm not sure what you mean by egoism, by the way.

Totally agree with your last paragraph. I had forgotten that that type of relationship actually existed as any girlfriends I had after turning about 20 years old were not so immature as to behave that way. I do know people like that though, thinking about it. I suppose they are the ones who should be reading this thread and the books you recommend.

[pookle]

i don't even want girls anymore. all of them are dumb bitches, lol. i just want them to like me and then i'll reject them. i guess that's kind of a silly type of motivation but it works, lol.

[Mehdi]

I guess I'd have to admit in this case that I don't dislike chick flicks as much as my wife would hate weightlifting

If I was asked to do something like...erm...tattoo my own face with a rusty needle, then even if it was my wife's favourite hobby ever I would have to politely decline. With most things it isn't so cut and dried that you know in advance whether you will like something, unless you have experienced the exact same thing in the same circumstances before. I read something a while back by one of the new age guru/philosophers who are getting so popular these days. He said his big secret was, "I don't care what happens". In other words, just go with the flow, don't judge things or have expectations of how something will go or how you will like it. Rusty needles are still a no no, even with that in mind

Coincidentally I ordered Awareness a couple of days ago and look forward to reading it.

Luckily for me my wife is considerably more easy going than the types of people who end up breaking up because the other didn't go to a movie with them (etc.) and I guess I just wouldn't mind watching a chick flick now and then! She doesn't even ask me though - why bother when she has friends who she knows will love it and she can also get the chance to socialise with someone else.

I'm not sure what you mean by egoism, by the way.

Totally agree with your last paragraph. I had forgotten that that type of relationship actually existed as any girlfriends I had after turning about 20 years old were not so immature as to behave that way. I do know people like that though, thinking about it. I suppose they are the ones who should be reading this thread and the books you recommend.

This might be a better example: you want sex, she doesnt. Solution 1: she says no and you're pissed because your needs aren't met. Solution 2: she says ok to fill your needs, but then she's miserable during the whole thing. You see where this kind of stuff is going over time.

Egoism => well some people will call you an egoist if you don't meet their expectations. Like: "you must come with me visit the family". But you don't want, because you just don't like it. Is this egoism from your part or theirs? For some people you're an egoist if you don't sacrifice yourself. They want you to go, even if you're miserable during the whole thing.

And it's definitely about being with the right people, but also treating people correctly.

i don't even want girls anymore. all of them are dumb bitches, lol. i just want them to like me and then i'll reject them. i guess that's kind of a silly type of motivation but it works, lol.

All girls are "dumb bitches" because you believe all girls are dumb bitches. Your reality becomes what you think. So all girls you meet are dumb bitches. You won't get anywhere with that kind of attitude, you'll only get more negativity.

[pookle]

i believe it. we project ourselves on the world. i'm just a miserable bastard