Jim Wendler Seminar - Some Interesting Points

[MikeD]

Charles Poliquin:
During our quick dinner, I was keeping my mouth shut most of the time, because 1) I didn't want to say something stupid, and 2) I felt I was being intrusive, even though he offered. Anyway, Poliquin got brought up, and I found pretty quickly he's yet another prick. According to people who have trained with him, he never uses a single principle he's preached his entire career (so the guys who talk about the glories of german volume training may have just gotten lucky...).

Westside/Steroids:
This is hardly a secret, especially since Louie Simmons has said that he's used steroids for 27 years straight with no ill effects, and there are guys at Westside going overboard and abusing. I asked Jim, "So the effects are that overblown?" He said, "If testosterone was bad for you, every teenage boy would be dead."

He detailed some problems; he'd get unbearable heartburn from capsules, he's have trouble sleeping, and trouble concentrating. A few of the guys who were already prone to being aggressive assholes only got worse.
I want to say now that he wasn't advocating them, nor was he trying to convince me of anything, he was just stating his experience, and how the use of steroids is such a taboo you might as well set the pope on fire while you're at it.
I wouldn't use them, one because I still think they're risky, and mainly, I'd be afraid that I'd look at all my achievements past that as somewhat tainted, like someone lifting the bar off your chest on the bench and you counting it in your log as a rep.

But is using steroids dishonest if everyone in the sport uses them?

[Wellhairedbeast]

If its open its not dishonest the results are just not the athelete's individual achievement, to achieve something you have to do it yourself.

I feel the same way about equipped powerlifting, and also other sports such as formula one where people have different cars. Yes you still have to be skilled etc, but its not an even playingfield for one as equipment etc and therefore money becomes a factor.

Im very old school, my opinion to life is - if you were dropped in the middle of the field naked and had no help, then if you can't do something in that situation without assisstance then your just not capable of whatever that is.

With regards to steroids although i agree it taints achievements i would still awknowledge that they put in hard work, i just wouldn't be impressed or respect them.

But this is just my opinion, and i mean no offense to anyone.

[atypical1]

Charles Poliquin:
During our quick dinner, I was keeping my mouth shut most of the time, because 1) I didn't want to say something stupid, and 2) I felt I was being intrusive, even though he offered. Anyway, Poliquin got brought up, and I found pretty quickly he's yet another prick. According to people who have trained with him, he never uses a single principle he's preached his entire career (so the guys who talk about the glories of german volume training may have just gotten lucky...).

Now that is interesting. Yet one more guy I've lost respect for in the industry (the list of people I trust is pretty damn small now).

Regarding steroids, I'm pretty neutral. I wouldn't use them but only because I don't have a reason to that would justify the cost. If I were a competitive bodybuilder or powerlifter and that's what it took to win contests an everyone else was in the same boat then I'd probably have to find a really good reason not to do them I suppose.

james

[holvoetn]

Regarding steroids, I'm pretty neutral. I wouldn't use them but only because I don't have a reason to that would justify the cost. If I were a competitive bodybuilder or powerlifter and that's what it took to win contests an everyone else was in the same boat then I'd probably have to find a really good reason not to do them I suppose.

james

Given those conditions your only options would be to use steroids or quit the game.
A person always has a choice.
My €0.02 anyway ...

[lionize]

I don't think it taints anything, are you not going to take creatine, whey, fishoil or whatever else? it's easy to claim the benefits of "legal" substances without the stigma but when steroids (and associated substances) are brought up or used it means you're tainted.

[Wellhairedbeast]

I don't think it taints anything, are you not going to take creatine, whey, fishoil or whatever else? it's easy to claim the benefits of "legal" substances without the stigma but when steroids (and associated substances) are brought up or used it means you're tainted.

Whey and fishoil are nutrition, if people don't like eating fish then a supplement is fine as its not performance enhancing, the sames goes for whey, as its cheaper than the equivalent in meat. I like fish so i have the cheap alternative of Tuna but whey or oil or vitamins are just nutrition even if they are more artificial like whey.

Creatine however is another matter, just because its legal does not mean it does not have a taint, i have no problem with people using it but i would never use it myself because i want my progress to come solely from hard work, eating and resting.

Pro athletes have a lot of pressures, and if everyone around them uses steroids and supplements then i can see why they will too, as in those term it goes towards levelling the playing fields. But i would much rather this kind of thing did not even exist and it was just man/woman vs man/woman or the elements...

(again i will stress that i mean no offense as im sure they are some here that may use such supplements, i understand you still put in all the hard work etc it is just my opinion that doing it the longer and harder way has its own merits in terms of mental strength and patience.)

[JasonLB]

This is debatable of course, but I tend to agree with lionize. I mean, technically speaking, there is no such thing as a level playing field when it comes to hormones, natural or otherwise. If we want stock cars instead of formula one, we should start testing for genetic outliers and either increasing test levels or decreasing test levels in order to bring everyone with the standard deviation, because there is a huge disparity in test levels from one individual to the next. So long as their is full disclosure, I don't really think steroid use is a big deal. Innovations in weight training, nutrition, and supplementation are no more "natural" than steroids, so why do we allow one and not the other? My guess is that the latter has a, largely political, stigma attached to it and a shitload of misinformation surrounding it.

[somebody]

Re Xfit, his:
http://strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7323

From the article linked in the top post:

"There are significant differences between the way that the CF staff and the way that Rip (their former expert) teaches the lifts which he and others attempted to rectify numerous times in the level one and two curriculum but were met with the old “this is the way we’ve done it” routine. On the subject of Rip for those that are curious as to why he left, the reasons are many, but not unlike mine. Additionally, in his case, was the horrendously shitty communication, or lack thereof at the HQ level which had gotten so bad as to become personally offensive to him."

[Jim Slade]

And since LiftingNerd's so insistent (kidding), I'll say I forgot to mention that the Ed Coan was hanging around at the seminar. He came down from another local Chicago gym where he trains a small group of lifters. If you don't know who he is, type in "Ed Coan Deadlift" in on Youtube and be awed.

I talked to him a bit, and he said he's been having bad problems with his hip, which has severely limited his training intensity. And yet the man is still damn imposing looking. Can anyone think of a "retired" lifter who doesn't keep at it, in some way? It seems it always follows them into older age, in some form.

You spoke to Ed Coan!!
I've met a couple of WSM contestants, had a pint with Jamie Reeves, and Andy Boulton but I would crawl over them to meet Ed Coan. You are a lucky bastard. Can i have your autograph?

[bkklift]

Whey and fishoil are nutrition, if people don't like eating fish then a supplement is fine as its not performance enhancing, the sames goes for whey, as its cheaper than the equivalent in meat. I like fish so i have the cheap alternative of Tuna but whey or oil or vitamins are just nutrition even if they are more artificial like whey.

The term performance enhancing can be misleading. Surely improved nutrition = improved energy, improved rest, improved recovery = improved performance.

Creatine however is another matter, just because its legal does not mean it does not have a taint, i have no problem with people using it but i would never use it myself because i want my progress to come solely from hard work, eating and resting.

Why doesn't creatine fall under the same argument as the above? Instead of eating loads of beef, it's cheaper and easier to supplement creatine. Why does creatine have a taint and fish oil/whey doesn't?

[Wellhairedbeast]

Personally the reason i categorise the creatine separately is because its a chemical supplement that is performance enhancing, eating beef which contains it naturally, does not cause the water retention etc , and you would also need to eat an insane amount of beef for the same effect making a huge weight gain. It unnaturally allows you to gain more energy and without the cost of additional calories.

But i see why an athlete would take it, particularly if they are involved in weight categories (when i trained BJJ some people used it as it allows you to gain energy without extra calories, which is also why bodybuilders may use it on a cut)

I am just partial to the natural side of things, its as simple as that, fishoil is a grey area because its an extract rather than manufactured. I am aware that creatine occurs naturally, but so does HGH.


But to get back on topic, i think its important to stress that at the seminar it was neither encouraged or discourages, this will always be a very individual thing, i am not here to convince anyone - just give my reasons for why i would never use such supplements. (hell i even disagree with vitamin pills, and i make my own herbal medicine rather than taking chemicals if im ill and can avoid it - sometimes i have no choice of course).

[bkklift]

Personally the reason i categorise the creatine separately is because its a chemical supplement that is performance enhancing, eating beef which contains it naturally, does not cause the water retention etc , and you would also need to eat an insane amount of beef for the same effect making a huge weight gain. It unnaturally allows you to gain more energy and without the cost of additional calories.

Again, a very similar argument can be made with whey protein powder (especially if your whey has an enhanced amino acid profile, which most do) or fish oil. Whey protein has reduced lactose content, causing less bloating etc. You would need to eat a heck of a lot of fish to match the recommended number of flamout tables, resulting in weight gain. Yeah, you wouldn't need to eat as much milk to get the equivalent protein as you would beef for creatine, but it seems odd to make an argument against a supplement because of convenience!

I also think the argument can be made that all supplements are performance enhancing, that's why we take them! That enhancement might take the form of improved recovery, protein synthesis, greater energy but it all translates too enhanced performance.

I am just partial to the natural side of things, its as simple as that, fishoil is a grey area because its an extract rather than manufactured. I am aware that creatine occurs naturally, but so does HGH.

I guess that's where we differ slightly. I too, am very partial to the natural side of things. For me, unnatural supplements = hormonal supplements, like steroids, HGH etc. Creatine doesn't fall under that umbrella.

For you it appears unnatural supplement = anything that is not directly extracted from a whole food source?

If you could get creatine that was extracted (say from beef or bones ), rather than manufactured would that make creatine a "non-tainted" supplement?

But to get back on topic, i think its important to stress that at the seminar it was neither encouraged or discourages, this will always be a very individual thing, i am not here to convince anyone - just give my reasons for why i would never use such supplements. (hell i even disagree with vitamin pills, and i make my own herbal medicine rather than taking chemicals if im ill and can avoid it - sometimes i have no choice of course).

I appreciate your comments Wellhairedbeast. I'm not trying to convince anyone either, just better trying to understand your point of view. Ideally, we would get all our nutrition from whole organic, locally sourced foods. Unfortunately that is not always possible, hence the reason for supplements.

I respect your views on what type of supplements you prefer but I think you are stepping into very murky territory by stating that certain supplements "taint" somebody's progress, especially when the line separating the "non-tainted" supplements from the "tainted" appears so fuzzy.

[Wellhairedbeast]

I see whey a bit like powdered milk, its from food (sometimes from egg or milk) and has been refined and powdered down for convenience. It gives no performance enhancing benefits its just nutrition in a cheaper form than a steak. Think of it like Complan (liquid food for the elderly) they may have dehydration and digestion problems so they are fed this milkshake, its just extracts from food liquidized.

But anyway i already said whey and fishoil are a grey area with regards to this.

And i did also specify that its its important to still acknowledge that an individual using supplements or steroids still puts in the hard work. But the overall result, like having cosmetic surgery, may be "you" but its not 100% from your own hard work as chemicals or a surgeon have done some of it for you.

But as i keep saying this is just my opinion and i don't have to justify myself to anyway one, i would never insult a supplement or steroid user by saying all their work is worthless but if they wanted to know my opinion i would happily say i would be more impressed by someone who had made the progress without it. I can't afford organic food all the time and i don't look down on someone who can't afford good quality food, although i support the free range ideal, sometimes all i can afford is cheap chicken. But i do have the choice to not take supplements. Yes i have used whey in the past, but its not something i buy now. Im fully aware im limiting my potential but i feel good that i know i have made my progress without the aid of anything but hard work.

When i mention i feel there is a taint, that is personal to me and i do not feel athletes should be ostracized for using them, particularly as they are pressured into it as the majority of competitors will be or will have used them. Personally if i used creatine or glucosomine etc i would feel like i have cheated myself.

If i wanted to walk somewhere that was 2 miles away, i would walk 4 miles just because i like walking and the scenery. The experience is as important as the destination, i think if something is harder, or made harder it makes it that much more worthwhile to have it. Just see it as a zen thing if you must.

[MikeD]

Keep in mind he didn't say this at the seminar as well - this was afterwards, in a sort of "off the books" sort of way. He probably wouldn't have wanted to give the guys any ideas.

[Wellhairedbeast]

Has anyone tried the thumbless grip on the overhead press btw?
If so how did it feel?

I have only tried it on a warmup set so far, i though i should test it at lighter weights before using it on my main sets, so i can't really feed back on it yet.