Knees travelling forward on Squat

[fideli]

Is it really wrong to start with knees perpendicular, then let them naturally slide forward as they want when I go down in the hole? When doing it this way, my hamstrings seem to get a better stretch...

If you mean start with the shins perpendicular to the ground, then it sounds good to me. Just don't let the knees buckle in on the way up.

[LudwigVan]

Is it really wrong to start with knees perpendicular, then let them naturally slide forward as they want when I go down in the hole? When doing it this way, my hamstrings seem to get a better stretch...

Is it wrong, as in is it unethical or immoral? No. You're not going to get arrested for it. But by allowing your knees to travel forward at the bottom, you're shortening your hamstrings when they should be most stretched and thereby removing some of their contribution to the movement, so it's not recommended.

[iCookie]

From Starting Strength:

"From the top, shove the knees forward and out to the place they will end up, just in front of the toes, and then the rest of the movement will consist of the hips moving back and down."

It makes sense now...I don't own the book, but I should probably buy it.

Mehdi's Squat article was very unclear as far as hip/knee break-time goes.

[eLvarouza]

The main point in Mehdi's squat article is that the hips need to go back. The vast majority of novices I've seen always try to squat with a huge knee bend and a vertical torso, which results in coming up on the toes. Some people interpret Mehdi's article as shoving the hips completely back at the beginning without moving the knees forward. A balance is needed, and this is what you've discovered here.

[Mouse]

There is a reason for the hips back first.
It is mainly a cue to remind you to push your hips back and down.

The majority of squat form checks revolve around people bending at the knee first and then dropping straight down with no rearward movement of the hips.
The rearward movement of the hips allows for tension to be built in the hamstrings.
If the hips are shoved back at the bottom of the squat it is easier to use hip drive to lift out of the hole.

When learning to squat, it is more beneficial to 'get' the posterior chain involved, the hamstrings and hip drive sorted first before worrying too much about knees.

I find if you think about breaking the knees to much, you end up forgetting to shove the hips back.
Remember learning to drive a car? You have to worry about looking, mirrors, steering, speed,accelerator, brake, clutch, gears etc all at the same time - pretty confusing until you eventually 'get' what you are supposed to do.
A bit like squatting really.

In essence though, knees and hips break together, with knees being fixed in the first half of the descent.

Starting Strength is worth the money spent.

[iCookie]

In essence though, knees and hips break together, with knees being fixed in the first half of the descent

Wait, I thought knees were supposed to be fixed during the last 2/3 of the descent, and then during the first 2/3 of the ascent...?

[eLvarouza]

You're overthinking things. Push your knees out and forward and drop your hips down below parallel.

[Westsider]

If you watch a good squat technician, nothing moves but the hip joint. He bends only at the hips. His back doesn’t move, and his knees don’t go forward. Others push gradually throughout the lift, just enough to accommodate the external force that is being applied. The feet should point straight out and forward. This forces the hip muscles into play. It is hard to break parallel because the hip flexors and extensors are put into a very strong position for flexion. Turn the feet outward slightly if you are not flexible enough or if you have a thick waistline and thick upper thighs. When you squat, think about pushing your feet out, not down. That will ensure that the hip muscles are working correctly. Push your knees out the entire time, starting from the moment you unrack the bar. You should feel this in the hips. Next, start pushing the glutes to the rear as though. While descending, always squat back, not down. If you push the glutes back, the knees won’t go forward. By forcing your knees apart, you are significantly increasing your leverages. After breaking parallel, you must first push against the bar. After all, the bar is what we are trying to raise. Pushing with the feet first is a mistake. This causes the lifter to bend over and most likely to miss the lift.

If you are unable to sit back properly on the squat then I am afraid you have weak hamstrings and will need to strengthen them with an isolation exercise or two. This is the problem with a programmes consisting entirely of compound movements. Sometimes the lifter has a muscular weakness or imbalance that stops them from doing the lift properly. You are only as strong as your weakest link and ignoring a muscular weakness then you will only progress backwards.

[JasonLB]

@OP, I realise you are probably completely confused now, but please, please don't listen to a word of the above advice. I'm not sure where westside gets his info, but it's completely wrong. Do yourself a favor and just buy Starting Strength. You might also want to go to youtube and do a search for Mark Rippetoe and watch his videos on squatting. And here is a vid from the IPF with some of the best squaters in the world: most use a moderate stance width, feet pointed out at an angle, and they break at the knees and hips at the same time, with their knees ending up somewhere out over the toes.

[guru]

Jason, I agree that Westsider's post is not relevant here. However, to say that all of it is wrong would be a mistake. What he is describing is a box squat & all his description is completely in line with Dave Tate's article "Squatting from Head to Toe".

Of course, for a beginner, it's always much better to follow Starting Strength.

[JasonLB]

I guess I should have been more clear. Westsider's observation that a good squatter only moves the hip joint -- "he only bends at the hip" -- is completley wrong, and it's liable to cause confusion because it completely lacks context. Spreading the floor, sitting back into the squat, etc. are all great cues, but they need to be put into context in order to be properly understood. It's an issue of a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing. The guys at Westside Barbell, back in the day, were all suited lifters and used a very wide squat stance. With a suit, and an ultra wide stance, you really can sit back while keeping the shins more or less perpendicular to the ground. It's the same with box squats -- generally, box squats were trained with a wider stance than what was used with a competition set up, and they were designed to specifically target the posterior chain, hence sitting back and not letting the knees come forward, which limits quad recruitment, is an integral an part of the lift. But outside of multi-ply federations, very few powerlifters use an ultra wide stance, they don't just sit back, and they don't try to limit quad recruitment. That's why I posted the IPF video -- most of those guys use a low bar, moderate stance squat. They sit back and down, and their knees travel forward out over their toes. That's the way guys like Kirk Karwoski and Kaz squat -- as did all of the guys who were around before suited lifting took off -- even a lot of the guys now associated with elitefts squat that way, especially during training -- training the squat and testing the squat in a comp are two different things (just check out Matt Kroc's videos on youtube). But just to be clear, people can squat using whichever style they want to use, but they should understand why certain techniques are used and under what circumstances they are most useful.

[Westsider]

I could refute what you just said but I'm not going to since I don't want to turn this guys forum into a squat form debate. I shall simply wish iCookie the best of luck in improving his form and leave it at that.

[eLvarouza]

I could refute what you just said but I'm not going to since I don't want to turn this guys forum into a squat form debate. I shall simply wish iCookie the best of luck in improving his form and leave it at that.

Feel free to start a new thread and do so, because I'd be interested to hear this.

[Westsider]

correction post not forum