Low Bar vs. High Bar Squatting

by **guni** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:59 pm

I saw a couple of comments in the PR thread about Low bar squats sucking. So, I was wondering why people think that to be the case. Mark Rippetoe, author of Starting Strength, favours low bar. I like low bar myself, as I can stay tighter throughout the movement better than with a high bar.
Opinions, experiences, and information you've found on the subject is welcome.

by **brentDoesWork** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:03 pm

i just said that because i'm biased, it's really just preference, both are really great movements, they just serve different purposes

as a weightlifter i am all about high-bar, "weightlifting-style" squats ... it's the squat movement that benefits the snatch and clean pulls the most, and helps your squat clean recoveries, it's just a really good lower body developer, especially for weightlifting-specific movements

low-bar is great, too, but it de-emphasizes the quads and (from a weightlifting perspective) over-emphasizes the hamstrings, so it makes you a good puller in general, and it does make you stronger for sure, but it's not as effective as the high-bar squat in making you a better weightlifter

of course, you could always argue (like Rippetoe) that high-bar squatting over-emphasizes the quads and does not train the hamstrings efficiently ... it really just depends on the purpose of your squatting

by **Mehdi** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:44 pm

I started doing bodybuilding squats, high bar, narrow stance, rock bottom. Didn't know about low bar versions back then. I tried low bar wide powerlifting squats when I got exclusively focussed on strength. Then injured my lower back. Lower back is fine since then, but I still tend to avoid exercises which involve too much leaning forward. Which includes low bar squats.
Rippetoe recommends low bar squats for general strength. The posterior chain is emphasized doing low bar squats. All sports rely on a strong posterior chain for speed & explosiviness. Low bar squats are a great tool for this, but exercises like deadlifts & power cleans also use the posterior chain.
It really depends on what you prefer like Brent wrote.
Two articles you'll like:

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1736931

stronglifts.com/correct-bar-placement-on-squats/

by **Lucas** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:59 pm

By my understanding, low bar squats should actually be better for your lower back than high bar squats, when done correctly. The lower bar position means that there's less distance between your hips and the weight, therefore there's less stress on your lower back. (Think of it like a see-saw. It's easier to push your end of the see-saw down when you're farthest from the center point, and hardest when you're right next to it. Similarly, weight high on your shoulders creates more stress on your lower back than weight low on your shoulders.)
Mehdi's right that you have to lean over more, though, so flexibility might be an issue.

by **brentDoesWork** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:30 pm

"The lower bar position means that there's less distance between your hips and the weight, therefore there's less stress on your lower back."

there's a corollary to that

because high-bar allows (requires) a more upright torso, there is less shear force on the spine ... much of the force is compressive

whereas a low-bar position, which forces forward lean, produces more shear force

using the see-saw analogy, where is the torque greatest in regards to a downward force (the weight) ... when the lever-arm of the see saw is close to perpendicular with the ground (i.e. more or less in the same direction of the applied force), or when the lever arm is closer to parallel ?

by **Mehdi** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:56 pm

Lucas:
By my understanding, low bar squats should actually be better for your lower back than high bar squats, when done correctly. The lower bar position means that there's less distance between your hips and the weight, therefore there's less stress on your lower back. (Think of it like a see-saw. It's easier to push your end of the see-saw down when you're farthest from the center point, and hardest when you're right next to it. Similarly, weight high on your shoulders creates more stress on your lower back than weight low on your shoulders.)

One reason front squats can be done by people with lower back problems but back squats not: more upright position on front squats. High bar squats = more upright position than low bar. Same principle apply in my experience.

by **Lucas** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:05 pm

I've actually been experimenting with high bar vs low bar in my training recently. I'd always done high bar until a few weeks ago, when I tried the low placement after reading Starting Strength.
I've found that I like the high position better. It's more comfortable and easier for me, so I can worry less about supporting the bar and more about keeping proper form and pushing hard.
However, I definitely feel that my lower back is more exposed to the possibility of injury with high-bar squats than with low bar. As I said earlier, the high bar position moves the bar farther from the hips and puts my center of gravity farther forward. This makes it more likely that, on a particularly tough rep, my balance is thrown forward and I have to use my lower back to correct my form as the weight moves over my toes. Yes, I'm aware that this is an example in which proper form is not displayed. However, show me a person who gets the form 100% correct on every single rep he or she does, and I'll show you a person who's not even close to reaching his or her strength potential. If you're going heavy and pushing your limits, you're eventually going to screw up the form on at least one rep.
And yes, by leaning forward in a low-bar squat, you're placing more demand on the posterior chain. However, I'm not sure that the "shear" effect on the spine is anything you should be worried about as long as you set up with your spine aligned and keep the pressure up in your abdomen and chest (Valsalva maneuver, anyone?). If you're set up correctly, the active muscular effort to stay upright should come from the hips, not the back.
Problems for the back in both the low and high position come when your hips come up faster than the bar, creating a forward lean that you then have to use your back to correct. This correction is easier with a low bar placement than with a high bar, thanks to the shorter lever arm from the hips to the bar. I personally think that this is why Starting Strength recommends the low bar placement -- it's a book designed to teach beginners, who are most likely going into the weight room without any kind of professional supervision and are going to screw up form semi-regularly, so low bar placement helps to mitigate the danger of a screwed up rep.
Sorry for the long ramble. As I said earlier, I'm a fan of the high bar and I've decided to use it going forward. But I do think that the low bar squat is a valuable technique that, when done correctly, is safer than high bar for your lower back. Just my 2 cents.

by **Mehdi** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:06 pm

I also prefer high bar Lucas. And I do agree perfect form on every rep isn't possible, especially as the weight gets heavy. Although you should do your best

The way I see it, there's more chance to perform a good morning squat using a low bar position. While the high bar is (like front squats) more a straight up kind of squat. But you're right you can always end up leaning forward, I do it with front squats when it gets heavy. It's common (check olympic weightlifting competitions).
I feel it's much harder to have the hips come faster than the chest using a front squat/high bar squat. Much harder, not impossible.
When I teach someone to squat, I always start with low bar (easier on shoulders, teaches someone to use the posterior chain, sitting back better). Then as the week advance, I let them adapt. Some keep low bar, some switch to high bar. I think flexibility/build has much to do with it. I've got long legs/short torso, prefer high bar. My brother also switched to high bar after some weeks. I've got a tall trainee under my wing right now who is very unflexible in the hip area. I don't see him doing a high bar squat soon.

by **Rockfella** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:05 pm

I feel SS version of squats works lower back more also hamstrings more as compared to high bar, i like high bar 'coz as u mentioned we do DLs for low back, i like the feel i get in my legs doing high bar.

Mehdi wrote:I started doing bodybuilding squats, high bar, narrow stance, rock bottom. Didn't know about low bar versions back then. I tried low bar wide powerlifting squats when I got exclusively focussed on strength. Then injured my lower back. Lower back is fine since then, but I still tend to avoid exercises which involve too much leaning forward. Which includes low bar squats.
Rippetoe recommends low bar squats for general strength. The posterior chain is emphasized doing low bar squats. All sports rely on a strong posterior chain for speed & explosiviness. Low bar squats are a great tool for this, but exercises like deadlifts & power cleans also use the posterior chain.
It really depends on what you prefer like Brent wrote.
Two articles you'll like:

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1736931
stronglifts.com/correct-bar-placement-on-squats/

by **wobbles** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:03 pm

When I first started barbell training I did everything according to Rippetoe's suggestions in Starting Strength and Practical Programming (and pretty much still do). He made some very convincing points about why low bar squatting is superior to high bar, and I've had good results using low bar squats.

Over the course of my training however, I've grown to view the low bar squat as more of a cheat and think high bar and front squats are more effective exercises for leg development. When you first switch from a high bar to a low bar squat you can immediately add a significant amount of weight due to the reduced range of motion and increased back and hip involvement. If I had to do one exercise, and one exercise only it would be the low bar squat. However, when part of a complete program including deadlifts and power cleans, I think ass to grass high bar and front squats develop greater vertical force production. I feel like they are 'safer', too, but this is purely anecdotal as I've developed quadriceps tendinitis and some lower back issues from low bar squats, but have yet to experience any problems with front squats.

I also think depending on anthropometry an individual may or may not be ideally suited for one particular style of squatting. If you already have long femurs and a short torso, the additional forward lean the low bar squat requires puts more stress on the spine (you could argue compressive vs shearing force, etc).

This is all just opinion, preference and anecdote, so take it with a grain of salt.

by **Rockfella** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:05 am

Thanks for sharing, no more low bar squats for me now (for some time), we DL don't we??? hehe.. Honestly doing low bar ones i had a feeling i was over-training my back rofl! All the "feel" of squatting went to the lower back! Mehdi should mention which squat to follow in the starter 5 x 5 i feel.

wobbles wrote:When I first started barbell training I did everything according to Rippetoe's suggestions in Starting Strength and Practical Programming (and pretty much still do). He made some very convincing points about why low bar squatting is superior to high bar, and I've had good results using low bar squats.

Over the course of my training however, I've grown to view the low bar squat as more of a cheat and think high bar and front squats are more effective exercises for leg development. When you first switch from a high bar to a low bar squat you can immediately add a significant amount of weight due to the reduced range of motion and increased back and hip involvement. If I had to do one exercise, and one exercise only it would be the low bar squat. However, when part of a complete program including deadlifts and power cleans, I think ass to grass high bar and front squats develop greater vertical force production. I feel like they are 'safer', too, but this is purely anecdotal as I've developed quadriceps tendinitis and some lower back issues from low bar squats, but have yet to experience any problems with front squats.

I also think depending on anthropometry an individual may or may not be ideally suited for one particular style of squatting. If you already have long femurs and a short torso, the additional forward lean the low bar squat requires puts more stress on the spine (you could argue compressive vs shearing force, etc).

This is all just opinion, preference and anecdote, so take it with a grain of salt.

by **jakemcmillan** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:45 am

I say low-bar squats are more mechanically advantageous. An old-school concept is using high-bar for most of your training, then switching to low-bar to express the strength gained in high-bar. This is more of a powerlifting concept. I don't know if it's a good one or not, never tried it.

by **Matti** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:43 am

First thanks all for a discussion supporting my own thoughts about the high vs. low bar. I myself have always been using high, or quite high, as it has felt natural from start. Without reflecting much about exactly why, I have always considered low bar mostly for specialized hard core competition powerlifters, myself being more of a hobby-lifter. Now when thinking about it and also reading a bit about it I would like to add the issue with short vs. long torso. My back is a bit short in relation to my legs, and that fact in itself already speaks for a higher position, as I can get the torso in a more horizontal angle without having to lower the bar compared to a person with longer torso. If I went for a low position to get a more favourable torque I would get problem with balance (risk for falling backwards), and the remedy would be a wider stance, but then I again feel like moving into hard core territory.

by **baatzt** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:36 pm

My personal opinion is to use the position that feels most comfortable to you. Like jake and wobbles points out, there can be a carryover from high bar to low bar, but from a hobby-lifestyle-lifting perspective this shouldn't be something neither of us should worry too much about.

Just make sure technique/form is tip top, and then place the bare where ever you feel like, low or high, just don't put it on your head. Or play around with it as motivational variety in your squatting.

baatzt

Edit: lint notified me of this article some time ago, I found it very interesting. Thought I would share: http://www.jopp.us/freeinfo//squat_mastery.pdf - enjoy.