Please help I keep f***ing up

[Trifin]

Until recently I thought and acted towards women in a very similar manner to the way you describe yourself. I was raised to believe in the pseudo-religious western/hollywood concept of "true love". I thought that if I acted like a "nice guy" that women would be attracted to me and I'd somehow find that special someone. Nothing could be further from the truth...

While I'm in no way advocating that we all act like complete assholes, the truth of the matter is that women aren't looking for nice guys. They're looking for strong, self-confident, dominant, "alpha males" with a good job who aren't intimidated by how hot they are.

When you get a chance go to www.laddertheory.com and read the whole thing from start to finish. It should explain your situation to a "T". Then, go to www.ladderwiki.com, and read that. The information found on these sites is very informative about female psychology and the dynamics of male/female relationships.

In the meantime, judging by your original post and her behaviour now, she's pretty much lossed all interest in you, and you should just ignore it and move on. Read the material I suggested (seriously) and take a break from hitting on women until you've changed your views on the matter.

It's very possible for you to change yourself and adapt to the point where you are dating hotter women than you ever dreamed you could, but it's a process. You have to change your thinking...

[Tmv]

Thanks alot Triffen. I can tell you feel strongly about this I will definately check it out. I too have noticed that being more of an alphamale type really shows a difference. Once again, thanks alot for your help.

[Trifin]

Thanks alot Triffen. I can tell you feel strongly about this I will definately check it out. I too have noticed that being more of an alphamale type really shows a difference. Once again, thanks alot for your help.

you're welcome. I do feel strongly about it. Women used to walk all over me until I realized that I couldn't make excuses anymore. I finally faced up to the fact that the only person who was responsible for the failed relationships in my life was myself. Not that they didn't make mistakes too, but if I'd have known then what I know now I would have recognized those things early on and wouldn't have let it continue any further.

This all becomes suddenly liberating all of the sudden when you realize whatever your goal is with women whether it be marriage, a long-term relationship, a date, a one night stand, a threesome, etc...whatever it may be, YOU can do it on YOUR OWN terms, and YOU can control the outcome. In fact, women WANT you to. They want you to take the lead and be in charge. No woman in her right mind wants to feel like she's your mother. Now most people won't admit this. Society calls it sexist, but the truth is that women derive sexual pleasure from putting up resistance and being overwhelmed. It's in their biological make-up. They want someone who they can let their guard down with knowing that you have everything under control, and now they can sit back, relax, and let their hair down. They want you to be a challenge. If you're not, then why should they waste their time on someone who acts like every other guy out there.

Now I know that most feminists would fight me on this, but they can't undue thousands of years of human evolution with fifty years of social change. This stuff programed into our behaviour from long before we're even born. While I support women's rights as much as anyone else, I think that when it comes to sex that the women's movement has done anything but liberate them. They've actually alienated them sexually.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox. the main thing is, go to that website. do your own research and don't take my word for it.

[Mehdi]

When you get a chance go to http://www.laddertheory.com and read the whole thing from start to finish. It should explain your situation to a "T". Then, go to http://www.ladderwiki.com, and read that. The information found on these sites is very informative about female psychology and the dynamics of male/female relationships.

Laddertheory is bullocks!

[Trifin]

When you get a chance go to http://www.laddertheory.com and read the whole thing from start to finish. It should explain your situation to a "T". Then, go to http://www.ladderwiki.com, and read that. The information found on these sites is very informative about female psychology and the dynamics of male/female relationships.

Laddertheory is bullocks!

says who?

[Mehdi]

When you get a chance go to http://www.laddertheory.com and read the whole thing from start to finish. It should explain your situation to a "T". Then, go to http://www.ladderwiki.com, and read that. The information found on these sites is very informative about female psychology and the dynamics of male/female relationships.

Laddertheory is bullocks!

says who?

I do.

women are attracted to men 50% based on the man's wealth or power status, 40% on attraction (which further breaks down into subcategories, the largest of which is looks), and 10% on other factors.

It's BS.

[Trifin]

Well yes, the actual percentages are unfounded, but you miss the point. The guy's trying to be funny. The theory isn't meant to be taken literally, but rather, it's a funny and oftentimes offensive way of explaining some very real truths about human behaviour.

When you read that quote in the context of the entire site it starts to make sense.

Anyway, to each his own. I'm not trying to start an arguement here. I was just sharing some things with TMV that had helped me. If you go to the ladderwiki site and read the articles there you'll find some more serious stuff about female psychology and what triggers female attraction. I think you'll find Mehdi that much of it agrees perfectly with other things you've posted here.

BTW, let me say that I do think a lot of the guys in the so-called PUA/seduction community who write some of this stuff are full of shit in a lot of areas, but I don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There are some things that can be gleaned that are not only helpful when dealing with women, but also in areas of business and everyday interaction with people. I've always been of the opinion that one cannot find the truth in any matter until all points of view have been heard and considered.

[Tmv]

Yea I've read like Half of the ladder theory about a month ago. Yes the author is trying to be funny when he writes some things. It feels like the moral of the story is to show 100 percent confidence, show no signs of nervousness to the female, (if she holds eye contact with you and doesn't back away go and talk to her and prove to her you are confident type of dealio, am I right?

[Trifin]

Yea I've read like Half of the ladder theory about a month ago. Yes the author is trying to be funny when he writes some things. It feels like the moral of the story is to show 100 percent confidence, show no signs of nervousness to the female, (if she holds eye contact with you and doesn't back away go and talk to her and prove to her you are confident type of dealio, am I right?

That's one part of it, but there's more. Read more of the wiki page. There's some useful info in there....

[Rara]

It feels like the moral of the story is to show 100 percent confidence, show no signs of nervousness to the female, (if she holds eye contact with you and doesn't back away go and talk to her and prove to her you are confident type of dealio, am I right?

Oh my god. This thread is so sad.

She's a human being, not a dog.

@ Tmv, dude, I feel your pain. I've been where you've been. But "ladder theory" and other "game" is the surest way to failure.

It seems like you're not comfortable with your sexual desires. When I'm hungry, I go after food. When I'm turned on, I go after sex. Beating around the bush is the surest way to guarantee starvation in those situations. You have to be comfortable asking for what you want and need.

I could write a whole book (and many have) on the best way to get girls, but rather than relying on people who are trying to take your money or convince you you're not good enough unless you change who you are, I'll simply point you to an article about why being direct is the best way to go about things.

If you go to any college, they'll have access to a database called Communication and Mass Media Complete, search for an article entitled "Beauty and the Flirt: Attractiveness and Approaches to Relationship Initiation":

[A]ttractive men can engender a positive outcome when their strategies are sexual and aggressive. Unattractive men are more successful when they use conventional or appropriate tactics...Attractive men can express their sexual interests even more clearly, because their advances are more likely to be received positively by women...For unattractive men, women may be less certain whether they would be willing to go on a date upon first meeting, so they are more likely to prefer a conventional approach.

Basically, by being more honest about your desires with her, you are more likely to get with her if she already finds you physically attractive (physical attraction being what is tested here and the number 1 determinant in forming relationships). But if she finds you unattractive, your best bet is to play it cool and keep your desires to yourself.

The question I have is why would you want to keep your desires to yourself and censor yourself when being direct it the best way to test her attraction towards you?

Why would you want to be with someone who finds you unattractive?

If she is "the one" as you say, do you want to spend the rest of your life with someone you have to watch what you say around?

No matter how hard guys try to convince you, girls have different taste in men. Next time have a conversation with the women in your life about which guys they would have sex with and not have sex with based on their looks alone. Go into a restaurant or bar and people watch. Have her point out the untouchables and the desirables. Then do the same with other women. Not only will each girl have varied types she's into, but all the girls's tastes together will cover the whole spectrum of guys.

In other words, you don't have to change a thing about yourself. There are attractive girls who find you as you are physically attractive. And if she does, anything you say is good enough to initiate a relationship as long as you make a move. It doesn't matter how nervous or confident you are. Courage trumps confidence any day.

Would you hold it against her if a hair was out of place? Would you turn her down if her stockings were torn or her make up was running? If you'd still like her when she's not bringing her "a" game, she'll still like you when you're off yours. Instead of focusing on your negatives, focus on the positive. Nervousness can be charming and endearing, especially if she knows why. I'm flattered when girls hit on me, and more so when they get nervous about it.

Why wouldn't they be when I'm the same?

I would do as Mehdi suggested, ask her out directly. If she says yes, you have your answer. If she says no, you have your answer. It only gets awkward if you place importance on it or take it personally.

Btw, the same study said men who women found attractive got dates 40% of the time - 4 out of 10 being the high score. That means if a girl finds you super attractive, there's still a 60% chance she'll not go out with you. Those are the only rules of the game, my friend.

I've also linked to a couple of "recountings" by one of my favorite authors. He's not everyone's cup of tea. I'm not suggesting you act like him. But he is comfortable with who he is, flaws and all. And his stories illustrate how being direct doesn't have to be some big ordeal. Again, don't think you have to start acting like him. But do understand that expressing your interest is of prime importance.

1, 2

[Trifin]

I'm sitting here chuckling to myself at how you guys knock ladder theory when everything you're saying lines up with it. Did you even bother to read it? It's not about treating woman like dogs. It's about realizing that the thing that's kept you from being successful with women is chasing them and being overly desperate. It's about being secure in yourself as a man, and not depending on someone else to make you happy. When women see that they WILL be attracted to you. It's not about having some pick-up line or the "art of seduction".

We are social animals. It makes me laugh when I think about how people get so offended when someone even insinuates that as much as we've evolved as a race the only thing that hasn't evolved much is how we bahave sexually. The only thing that separates us from animals when it comes to our sexual behavior (or, "mating habits") is social and cultural conditioning. There are very basic response patterns of behaviour when it comes to attraction that can be triggered by the behaviour of the oppsite sex. It gets really fun when you find what those triggers are too... Hey, don't blame me. I didn't make the rules.

[Rara]

I'm sitting here chuckling to myself at how you guys knock ladder theory when everything you're saying lines up with it...There are very basic response patterns of behaviour when it comes to attraction that can be triggered by the behaviour of the oppsite sex. It gets really fun when you find what those triggers are too

That's our point. You're trying to figure out those triggers and attract women. It assumes all women are the same and have the same magic button. You end up living your life to attract and seduce them rather than living it for yourself.

Let's see some of the nuggets of gold they have at laddertheory.com:

Sell marijuana, get a tattoo, or stab somebody in order to look like you care more about something else other than her as opposed to actually having something you care about, even if it is literature and poetry (Charlie Bukowski and Lord Byron got laid like mofos, btw).

Never show too much interest. What is too much interest and how is the level of interest measured? Unknown. Anyone trying to "follow" this as a way to get a girl will be more focused on measuring their level of interest than listening to their own instincts and actually figuring out who she is as a person and whether she is right for them.

Our point is to quit reading books and theory and just keep it simple. By keeping it simple, you're not racking your brain for lines, micro-managing your behaviors, or worrying about what to say and do (or not say and not do). By relying on your instincts, you free yourself to be in the moment. You free yourself to be yourself. Get a tattoo or don't, sell insurance or don't, your life becomes your decision and not some attempt to get girls because this theory says you will "trigger attraction" and get girls if you live like someone else.

If you want her, make a move. Get on with your life regardless of how she reacts. The concious application of theory is what prevents guys from accomplishing their goals because they're too focused on doing it right rather than doing it. The whole self-respect thing takes care of it self when a guy is comfortable. Guys who have problems with girls rarely seem to have the same problem with close guy friends they aren't trying to get with, they don't have those problems with unattractive women.

We are social animals

Exactly. It's in our genes. Knowledge and skill isn't what's missing. Spine is.

If your point is that you simply need to have self-respect and be true to oneself, I agree with that point insofar as it applies to being a happy person and not as a way to attract girls, but it's not helpful here because what Tmv is looking for is how to ask out this one girl rather than for help with girls in general, which he has stated he has no problems with. Whether or not he thinks of her as special, the only way for him to "get" her is to ask her out and let the chips fall where they may. Telling him he has to make himself attractive to her before doing just that is what we object to.

If he has to "make" himself attractive to her, she ain't the one.

[Trifin]

Just a few comments:

That's our point. You're trying to figure out those triggers and attract women. It assumes all women are the same and have the same magic button. You end up living your life to attract and seduce them rather than living it for yourself.

Who says I'm trying to figure anything out? How do you know I haven't already? Who says I'm trying to attract women? How do you know that I don't already attract women? You don't even know me. There's a big difference between trying to attract women and recognizing when they are attracted. What's wrong with someone learning how to recognize that? Wouldn't you want someone to recognize if you were attracted to them? We as human being want to be understood, so it's only natural that we would send signals to the person we like to get them to take a hint. I never said that I assume that all women are the same, so please don't put words in my mouth. I said they are similar in the fact that they respond to whatever triggers emotion. Now it's depends on the individual what exactly will trigger certain emotions or how they will respond to that, but one thing you can always count on is that:

1. Everyone has SOMETHING they respond to

2. They WILL respond on one form or another

How they respond could depend on their personality, upbringing, social environment, religious beliefs, etc.... That's what makes every person unique. You're experiencing emotion now as you read this, and chances are you're reacting in some form or another. You could be be angry, amazed, laughing, or whatever... That's not a bad thing. It's just human behaviour.

[Trifin]

BTW, while I'm on the subject, contrary to popular belief WOMAN ACTUALLY LIKE SEX AS MUCH AS MEN! There, I said it.

You guys make it sound like we're living in the 1950's and the sexual revolution never happened. You act as if these guys doing pick-up are out there in the clubs spiking girl's drinks and somehow "decieving" them into having sex. Nobody's tricking anybody. Don't give me that bullshit about how the girl is sooooooooo innocent and doesn't know what's going on. It takes two to tango my friends.

We have a word in the English language called CONSENT.

I know lots of women who would love to be seduced by a strong, confident, good-looking man, so stop judging people like me who are considerate of women enough to give them what they want instead of suplicating to them, acting like a pussy, and hearing lines like, "let's just be friend's" all the time.

[Rara]

You don't even know me.

I could say the same for you:

You guys make it sound like we're living in the 1950's and the sexual revolution never happened. You act as if these guys doing pick-up are out there in the clubs spiking girl's drinks and somehow "decieving" them into having sex.

Don't give me that bullshit about how the girl is sooooooooo innocent and doesn't know what's going on.

Won't do it. I don't think they are innocent. And I agree, they love sex just as much as men. Which is why I think not being straight up about it is bullshit.

Now to the crux of your argument:

There's a big difference between trying to attract women and recognizing when they are attracted...How they respond could depend on their personality, upbringing, social environment, religious beliefs, etc.... That's what makes every person unique.

Which means you are advocating guys "read" her before making a move. In theory, it sounds great, but you can't read a woman's mind for the reasons you said above - people react differently. A girl crossing her arms could mean she doesn't want to talk or it could mean she's just freezing her ass off.

Trying to figure out if a woman's attracted to you before asking her out is the worst way to do it. Instead, guys should focus on their attraction to her. Is he attracted to her? If so be direct about it so there is no confusion on her part as to your desires and then based on how she responds to his initiative, the guy will know for sure whether or not she's into him. Part of it is keeping a clear head, not imagining marriage and children based upon a 5 second glimpse. Get to know her first not as a means to seduce her and convince her you care but because actual knowledge of her is essential to your own well being. That requires honesty. No attempts to build attraction or any fancy ladder theory.

And going back to the 50s comment, in limited ways it was better without the prevalence of feminized men of today who are too scared to jump without looking into what is essentially a no risk gamble. Guys are so scared of "losing power" by being honest about their interest when in fact, showing interest is the best way to gain power in a relationship. It builds dominance and authority, necessary for anyone interested in being a master of their own destiny.

In your quest to help guys recognize they don't need to supplicate you're creating a false set of behaviors and beliefs for them to adhere to when all that "non-supplicating" behavior happens naturaly when guys are simply honest and trust their instincts. There's false actions like "not giving compliments" or "getting a tattoo" needed. I have no problem not giving compliments if they're not earned and I have no problems with getting tattoos if I truly want them. But I reject any advice that tells guys they have to do something in order to attract women.

The only thing guys need to do, and I'll say it again because you ignored it last time: they just need the balls to do what's in their gut...to be honest. What's so bad about honesty? Honesty about what you're really willing to do and not do for her and why. You seem to keep dodging that bullet in your replies.

I know lots of women who would love to be seduced by a strong, confident, good-looking man, so stop judging people like me.

I ain't judging you for wanting women or for pleasing them (if you do). And I make no apologies for my sexuality and I know women want sex and I'm happy to give it to them.

But you're giving bad advice. I want the good guys to be better with women because I can't please them all. And I'd rather the women of the world have to deal with good guys than douchebags because the good guys are either too busy "running game" or becoming assholes just to get with the girls they find attractive. The communication of your advice isn't helping make this world better for the good guys or women.