Ram from India - Novice Help with Squats and SL 5x5

[rrnsss]

Dear all ,


I apologize in advance for my long winded post.

My name is Ram (Ramachandran Subramanian) from India. I am 37 , 6' and weigh 117 Kgs ( down from 120Kgs 5 months back ) . (I am guessing about 25 - 27 % body fat ). No Diabetes, elevated BP (Blood pressure).

After master health check up, the doctor advised to reduce weight and found no significant health problems that can cause my elevated BP except for over weight.

This was 5 months back. I started jogging for 45 minutes a day 4 times a week and in a month I saw significant reductions in my BP. Then I learnt that weight training can help reduce fat/weight faster.

I have been in a mildly negative calorific diet for the past 3 months (about 2000 Kcal a week deficit), and training weights and I walk for about 18 Kms a week . I have lost about 2.5 Kgs over the past 3 months. Was hardly able to do 3 push ups when I started , now I can do 12. Not able to do even one chin ups even now, however my squats are getting better. I can do 3 sets of 20 - 25 - 27 reps with 35 kgs even though I feel like I am going to fall down after I am done. I check up my BP with my family doctor every 10 days and even though it is still high (130/90 - 140/90 ), the doctor said I have improved a lot and has taken me off medication.

My goal is to live with out elevated BP and beat the BP before it causes any serious injury to my body and extra would be to loose man boobs and love handles and live a strong healthy life.

In this context, I happened to chance upon stronglifts 5x5 and it made a LOT of sense. By providence, I had also built up some basic level of fitness over the past few months. I am planning to start strong lifts 5x5 from next week.

When I squat, my knees go past my toes. No matter how hard I try. The only alternative seems to be to put my butt so far back and fall on the ground, which doesn't seem right.

I have posted a few videos of me squatting . I would be very grateful if you can take the time to view them and let me know if I am doing anything wrong. I watched mark rippitoe's video on squats (on you tube) and taught myself to squat. I also have noticed that some of the experienced folks squat in a way their knee goes past their toes. Anyway, Here are the videos.

Is there anything wrong with my squats? What would be a good starting squat weight for me for SL 5x5 programme?












Ram

[guru]

Hi Ram, welcome to stronglifts. It's nice to see another Indian around. You'll find this thread interesting.

As for your squat form, there is nothing wrong with knees going past toes - it depends on how one is built. However, what you're doing is sitting straight down. YTou need to sit back - as if reaching back to sit on a low chair behind you. In the process, your torso will have to bend forward (without rounding the back) to keep you from falling. Unless you sit back, you'll not have tension in the hamstrings & adductors which is important for a good squat.

Another important thing is to keep your knees shoved out throughout the movement. You may be doing it, but from this angle it can't be judged.

What I like in the squat is a good hip drive. I suggest read Mehdi's articles again, have a read of Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe & watch his videos on youtube. You can practise the sitting back technique anytime in the day without weights.

Hope you are starting with SL 5x5. Good luck & hope to see you a lot on the forums.

[Sam277]

^ What guru said. It's likely that your hamstrings are weaker than your quads. You could try box squatting to help you sit back.

[lovestolift]

You are doing high-bar squats and looking up. Change to low-bar and keep your head in a neutral position looking at a point on the ground about 6 feet in front of you.

[JasonLB]

Hey Ram, your squat form in the first three videos is actually quite good (you are performing a high bar squat, not the low bar squat suggested by Mehdi, so many of his form cues wont be applicable). But once you hit 80kg, your form starts to deteriorate badly (e.g. you aren't hitting proper depth anymore). Don't sacrifice form for weight on the bar, especially at the beginning stages. And, as Guru pointed out, there is nothing inherently wrong with your knees passing your toes, especially when high bar squatting -- if you make the switch to low bar, you'll notice, however, that you can sit back more, rather than just down, and your knees wont go as far forward. But, regardless of which style you choose to use, shove your knees out hard, especially at the bottom of the squat.

[rrnsss]

So can I keep my weight for SL 5x5 squats as 70 Kgs ? I will have to look at what a high bar and a low bar squat means.

Moreover, I am inherently afraid to sit down low as the weight goes up. I am scared that I wont be able to get up, so subconsciously I dont squat deep. But I dont realize it when I squat. Or so I think.

I used to really suck at this, but I have made some progress. I have to make more progress.

BAD SQUAT MADE EVEN WORSE BY SPOTTER

[rrnsss]

OK , I understand low bar squats now. Seems much better. People always said , keep your back straight! keep your back straight!!. I mistook it for keeping my back upright. There is a difference. I have to keep the bar high and look up if I have to keep my back upright. But I can keep my back straight and still squat with a low bar squat even though it is not as upright as in a high bar squat

I shall start practicing low bar squats from tomorrow. I hope all the effort I put into learning these squats dont go to waste.

[lovestolift]

If I were you I'd politely tell that guy to stay the fuck away from you while you squat. I'm not sure what people think they can do to help you in that position.

Don't worry, taking time to learn the squat properly is never a waste of time. It pays dividends.

[Bman1]

Ram - On your last video, your second and third squats were the right depth. All the rest of them (particularly after your "helpful" spotter came over) were not nearly deep enough. I would recommend starting 5x5 with no more than 70 Kgs (maybe even less) and focus on consistently going full depth. By starting lighter and following the 2.5kg per time increase progression, you will be able to focus on form and learn to feel when you are going deep enough. That way, as the weights get really heavy, you will know if you are going deep enough or if you need to back off a bit to ensure good form.

Keep video'ing yourself every know and then to make sure your form and depth stay good. There are somethings that are much easier to analyze by watching a video.

[rrnsss]

Thank you for your answer on my starting weight for SL5x5. I am too sore to go try out the low bar squat today as I did legs just yesterday. I am planning to start off with a total of 35 kgs (including the bar) and just get my posture correct for the low bar squat. So you lost 35 lbs in 1 year? That is awesome.


What happens when one's knees go past one's toes? Why is it so injurious? Here in India, I have seen many older guys and army trainees squat where their knees are way past their toes. And they are built like a steel rope.( All muscle lean and strong ) . May be a dumb question, but just curious as to why.It seems like it is just natural for the knees to go past one's toes when squatting naturally.

Will the hamstrings get strong by squatting, or should I do separate hamstring exercises? I am asking this because guru mentioned that the reason why I am not sitting back far enough might be due to the fact that my hamstrings and adductors are weak.

Looks like my form is much better in this squat which oddly enough is me squatting the second week I was learning it. Looks like form has worsened in the sixth week as compared to the second... strange!!

[ricepower]

The form in your last video (30kg) looks better to you because you are not going as deep. The deeper you go on a squat the further your knees will move forward.

Also regarding;

What happens when one's knees go past one's toes? Why is it so injurious? Here in India, I have seen many older guys and army trainees squat where their knees are way past their toes. And they are built like a steel rope.( All muscle lean and strong ) . May be a dumb question, but just curious as to why.It seems like it is just natural for the knees to go past one's toes when squatting naturally

Squatting with knees past your toes is not inherently bad in itself. With high bar squats & front squats this is a quite necessary part of the form. But because these type of squats work in that way, with your knees going forward, torso nearly vertical and more bending at the ankles - it a a quad dominant exercise.

Here is a good diagram of what occurs in a high bar olympic squat;



The type of squat recommended in the stronglifts programme and coaches like mark rippetoe is a low bar squat. The simple fact that the bar is on a different position on your back means you have to squat in a different motion. This motion is with hips going as far back as possible and shins quite vertical. This type of squat uses a lot more muscularture and allows you to lift bigger weights. It relies on potentially powerful underused muscles of the lower back, buttocks and back of your thighs. the spinal erectors, the glutes & hamstrings - referred to as the posterior chain which is the source of the most strength/power in your body.

The aim of both forms is to keep the bar travelling in a vertical line above the middle of your foot.

[ricepower]

Heres a picture from starting strength which compares the bottom positions of different squat types. I wanted to show you how the bar motion of different squat types is the same but couldnt find anything.

The third type is the low bar back squat. Notice that there is a lot of forward lean but the bar remains over the mid foot.

[ricepower]

Oh, a big recommendation for you too. Take off them spongey shoes!

[rrnsss]

Thanks rice power, that helped a lot

[Rockfella]

Don't wear cushion shoes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!