Significant Buttwink

[lovestolift]

Okay, as the title implies I am dealing with some buttwink now. I can tell that my back is rounding when I break parallel. I did not have this problem when I started the program 6 weeks ago. As my squats are approaching body weight (205 for 5x5 at 218 lb bw) I am becoming more and more inflexible. I stretch daily. I use static stretches, leg swings and squat stretches. My hamstrings are still becoming more inflexible. I notice it at work when I squat down to pickup a box, I feel like I am going to fall over. Other than quitting my job and practicing Yoga full time, I can't think of any way I can fix this.

It is getting harder to even get below parallel now. I am not looking for an excuse not to squat, I am just looking for a way to remedy this so I can squat. I am also feeling a bit of discomfort during and after squats around my lower back, usually on the left side. It is making it difficult to sit down, as my left leg is feeling it too. It's not pain per se, just an irradiating feeling. I feel like I constantly need to move in order to get rid of it, but it doesn't go away. I was supposed to squat 210 for 5x5 today, but I felt the twinge during my warm-up, so I tried to go for 180 and only got 5,5,1 before moving on to the next exercise. If I need to do a hard deload and relearn the movement, so be it. I'd rather do it right with less weight than injure myself trying to break a PR.

So my question is: What is this feeling, and how can I fix my squat?

Thanks in advance.

Note 1: I do not have access to a video camera, so taping my squat is out of the question.
Note 2: If you need to know anything about my other lifts you can check the link to my log.

[lovestolift]

For those that do not recognize the buttwink term: http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ#Why_is_my_lower_back_rounding_at_the_bottom.3F
In that section he notes that you may see it in body weight squats (meaning just your body, no bar), but it may go away when going heavier. Mine did not appear until I started going heavier, now it's here all the time. The niggling little back thing is as well.

[guru]

I can sympathize with that lovestolift. When my squats became heavy (translated > BW), I faced this same issue. The hamstrings were very tight - all day long. Then I added tennis ball rolling first in the morning, before the squats & also whenever I had time in the day. It has almost disappeared now.

Also, in addition to the leg swings & squat stretch, I do a dynamic hamstring stretch before my squat - just put one leg high in front of you (I use a preacher curl station for this) & do 10 reps of head (or chest) touching the knees.

HTH.

[eLvarouza]

Warm up better. Any tightness should be gone by your work sets. Aside from that, I'd make sure you know how to maintain a good extension. The problem could be as simple as you not being able to hold an extension in your back. Make sure you're keeping a neutral spine during your warmups and as you add weight the hamstrings will stretch out until they're nice and warmed up for your work sets.

My first few warmup sets (5 hang full snatches with empty bar, 5 squats with empty bar, 5 squats with 135lbs) my hamstrings are always tight and I have issues hitting a good depth. However, as my warmup progresses the problem goes away and my work sets are fine. Make sure you're warming up properly; do some sets with the empty bar to stretch out the muscles, then progressively increase the weight.

[lovestolift]

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.

My lower body warmup is as follows: 5-10 hip walks (lift leg up , grab shin and pull up so it ends parallel to floor- stretches glutes), 5-10 quad stretch walk (pulling heel towards butt) then 10 leg swings on each leg.
Then I do:
6 reps with the empty bar
5 reps with 70 lbs
5 reps with 120
4 reps with 150
3 reps with 170
2 reps with 190
1 rep with 200
work sets at 205

I am noticing the buttwink right away now, and no matter how I try, my back won't stay in it's proper position. I've never had this problem before. It has only developed since I started back squats (I used to do front squats).

Any idea what the twinge in the lower back is?

[lovestolift]

What do you guys think about overhead squats? Not as a replacement, but perhaps as a warm up or stretch. I seem to be able to maintain a better back position with them.

[Jcraig]

Do you have a desk job?

[muddy]

What do you guys think about overhead squats? Not as a replacement, but perhaps as a warm up or stretch. I seem to be able to maintain a better back position with them.

I do rotate in OHS as part of my workout, and I've found these do force focus on maintaining back extension. However, it's really the same thing as I get out of warmup sets for a back squat. But if the bar's eagerness to dump on you in an OHS if you lose back position helps cement in the body awareness, why not try that as part of your warm-up?

Also, what eLvarouza seems spot on to me. My wife comments that in my early warmup sets for back squat (and I always start with the empty bar), I have butt wink. But as the warm-up sets start getting heaver and I get a little warmer, they smooth out and the butt wink goes away entirely.

On the pain/irritation in the back: it sounds similar to something that happened to me. Perhaps it is, perhaps not. In my case, I did something very foolish and was far too tired and run-down to be in the gym. At the time, I was working out in the early morning. During my first set at work weight, I felt this sharp pop in my lower right back. I immediately racked the weight and was in pain. The pain subsided, but that spot on my back still nagged me. I would get this nervy/irritated feeling down the right side into my leg. If I, say, stood in place too long, it would get that odd irritated feeling and make me want to move. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the problem was. Was it some kind of sciatic nerve issue? Sacroiliac joint issue? Some kind of disc issue? In the end, after a lot of reading, I decided it was none of these, but rather I had more likely just severely strained a spinal erector muscle. I was slow getting back into my program. When I did, I focused a great deal on maintaining back tightness and using the squat as a conscious effort to maintain that rigid back and stretch the hamstrings. I thought I was doing this before, but getting someone to actually watch me helped me learn that I had a ways to go to get to where I should be. During the early few of these rehab workouts, something just seemed to subtly click back into place in my lower back. That irritation has been 100% gone ever since. I've added reverse hypers, back and hip raises, and other such back work into my program now in an effort to strengthen my back.

In short, I think this pain came about because of losing back tightness (especially lower back tightness) as the weights got heavy.I thought it was good enough, it wasn't, and I got injured as a result. I had to learn to take back tightness to a new level to keep pushing up with the weights.

Anyway, my $0.02 - hopefully some of it is useful.

[lovestolift]

@ Jcraig- No. Far from it, I am on my feet at work, with no breaks to speak of. The only real time I sit down is when I am on here, or doing some assignments for class.

@ muddy - I wouldn't go so far as to call it pain. An "irradiating sensation" is the best I can come up with to describe it.

I got someone to tape me squatting with a cell-phone cam and even with an empty bar I fold like an accordion when I break parallel now. My butt pulls in and my shoulders drop forward. I think my back is just not strong enough to counteract the tight hamstrings, though this seems odd since my spinal erectors really stick out now, so it stands to reason that they are stronger than before. I am certain that a de-load is the only way forward, otherwise I am going to injure myself.

So I think I will add in the OHS as a warm-up, but I am wondering if I should work them into the program for a little while well I focus on strengthening the back? Maybe I could substitute them for a while? Maybe add in some back specific work too? I've dumped the ab work (I think this may have exacerbated the problem), so I could afford to throw in some lower back work.

This is a really distressing problem. As a kid I had extremely tight hamstrings, it actually affected the way I walked. I had an MRI done, along with various other tests. All the doctors could suggest was stretching. So I stretched. It took years to correct the problem, but I eventually got to the point where I could walk normally and even throw a variety of kicks over my head (after MA training). Now six weeks into this program and my flexibility is shot, even though I have been diligent about stretching. It really is my only complaint so far, and I know it isn't the programs fault.

[lovestolift]

Alright, I have given this much thought and I have come up with a three pronged approach that I feel may remedy this problem. Here it is:

1. Deload --> Work on form issues. I am considering 150 lbs, but it's not set in stone. I may go lower if I have to. I will read, re-read and re-re-read the Starting Strength Wikia (as I do not have the book, this will have to suffice).

2. Stretch --> Work on flexibility. Institute PNF stretches for hamstrings and calves everyday, rather than simple static stretches. PNF = Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation. You tense the muscle against resistance for 10 seconds, then relax it and stretch for 20-30 seconds. It allows a deeper and better stretch. For calves this will accomplished by standing at full extension on a 3" board followed by touching heels to floor for the stretch. For hamstrings it will be placing leg on waist high surface and pushing downward, followed by reaching forward and grabbing the toes to stretch.

3. Exercise --> Work on lower back weakness. Incorporate one lower back exercise at the end of each workout. For workout A I will add in Back Extensions on an Exercise Ball (I do not have access to the proper equipment, so it'll have to do). For workout B it will be what I am referring to as the Superman. You lay on your stomach and lift your legs and arms off the ground. I will perform 3 sets of 10-15 reps. When I get past this problem, these will no longer be necessary, so I will ditch them at that time.

What does everyone think?