Skeptical of 5x5

[aaron5x5]

Hello! First post. 22 yrs, 175 lbs, 6'3. I'm one of those guys that did the isolation workouts like they teach you in school but i found this site when i realized I was working out for a year or so but not seeing much result. actually i felt like i was progressing in the last week, but i wanted to start a new workout. i started wanting a 6 pack last year, so i began doing cardio because although im "skinny" i have the little growing belly and fatty tits that no one else notices. anyways....i am skeptical of 5x5 because theyre not mentioning cardio, so i think im putting fat back on, and i have to start out with low weight because of these new exercises, so im losing muscle mass. hopefully it will workout well. i'm liking some of these exercises and the muscles that get sore after you didnt even think you worked them out!

There are just a couple things:

-Not sure that this can really trim fat like its advertised. Plus, there's no way I'm going to eat as healthy as described ( i think that's where the losing weight promise comes from), although I still eat moderately healthy. What would you guys say about slipping cardio in? Maybe 2 one-hour days (800 calorie) in the week? or maybe just one cardio day on one of the back-to-back off days?
-Not sure about the standing press. What's going to stop the bar from falling behind me once the weight increases? maybe i have a form of scoliosis so my spine is too curved for these exercises.
-Do you think squats and these pressed with all this weight on your body makes you shorter and shrinks your spine over time?

-Most important: I started squats with just the bar. I've liked them so far, but now my back and knees are starting to hurt and I try to do them just like they are described. My friend told me your supposed to move the energy so the stress goes down the back of your leg and down your calf instead of the front and past the knee. But I can't even do the squatting motion without feeling it in my shin and knee. I've tried curling my toes too but sometimes it feels like the weight will fall behind me. and this makes my back hurt. maybe i need to focus on keeping my back straight. I'm the type of guy who usually watches form and is very particular and makes fun of guys that swing their curls, so I realize the importance of good form. Maybe my legs should be farther than shoulder width or maybe I should get a trainer. But then I'm afraid he'll tell me to do away with this exercise.

any tips? thank you so much!

[tassietaekwon]

Hey aaron, i'm fairly new to this site also but feel like I might be able to offer some advice. It's good to see that you are on the forums discussing your worries about the program rather than just thinking "this will never work" and ditching it. Obvoiusly you have not been happy with the results from previous training routines, and alot of people have had great success with this (and other) 5*5 programs. I've been on this program for only a short time and have gained quite alot of strength and size.

Anyhow! To deal with your questions/issues..

As far as trimming weight goes, it's a fairly simple situation-- hopefully i can explain it simply

To lose weight, (fat and/or muscle) you must take in less calories than you consume.
To gain weight,(fat and/or muscle) you must take in more calories than you consume.
By doing this program, you will build muscle mass, which will mean that you burn more calories while just sitting around. Because all that muscle mass needs to be fed. Also the actual workouts burn calories (of course)

In the beginning stages people quite often burn fat AND build muscle at the same time. After a while this becomes quite difficult. You must take in more calories (than you burn) to become stronger and build muscle.
At 6 foot 3 and 175 pounds you are SKINNY. You may or may not fit the description of skinny-fat. Either way, once you have packed on some muscle (IMO at your height you should be at least 190-200lbs) the amount of fat on your body will look alot more proportional.

As far as your diet goes, why are you not going to eat healthy? There are three parts to strength training, EAT SLEEP TRAIN, why would you consiously make a decision that you are going to neglect one part of it. I'll admit my diet is not the healthiest, but I also am not the one worrying about fat loss.
If you want to add in cardio, i'm sure everyone will agree that HIIT is a better option than the hours of steady state cardio that you are suggesting. Do a search on this site and you'll see why.

On the standing press, yes it possible that you could drop the weight over the back of your head. If you were lifting too much weight. Just like you could drop the bar on your chest doing bench press. However if your shoulders are strong enough, as well as your core to stabalise the weight, this will not be a problem. If you are seriously worried about any spinal issues go an see a doctor before the weights start getting heavy. Otherwise the gradual increases as suggested by the program will build sufficient strength the hold and stabilise the weight above your head.

Heavy squats over time will compress your spine to a degree. Not so much that you will actually shrink. Mehdi has a video on this site of how to do spinal decompression. Not as nasty as it sounds!

Unfortunately your most important important question I cannot answer. How is your flexibility? This may be an issue that is causing some pain. My suggestion is to get a video of your squat form, post it on these forums and get people to help from there.

Sorry if this is abit long winded! I hope this puts to rest some of you issues with program. I think it's a good solid program and there are many gains to be made through sticking with it.

Good luck to you!

[Spydy]

Hi Aaron,

When I first started working out I asked a friend of mine at the gym "who long before you start to see results?" He replied "after about a year". Now this guy works his ass off at the gym, isolating groups and looking after himself. Since I didn't know any better I took his word for it. After starting Stronglifts 5x5 I saw physical improvements within 2 months hard work (including meals and getting enough sleep). So for me, SL5x5 works. I'm 3 months in and continue to drive myself with goals and perfecting technique. It works. End of story.

Cardio is within 5x5. Download the Beginner 5x5 chart and check the additionals. Do 15 minutes of cardio each sesh, adding a minute to each cardio session thereafter. Mix it up with some row, walking or swimming if possible.

Squats can take time to get right. Sound to me like your back is rounding. Keep your back rigid / arched with your ass and chest out as much as possible. Your legs will take care of themselves if your technique is right. I like my stance to be slightly (SLIGHTLY!) wider than shoulder width.

[ricepower]

Stronglifts 5x5 is a balanced training programme where the emphasis is starting with empty bar, focusing on form and progessively adding more weight as you get stronger.

This type of training is actually much safer, especially the standing press. Because it is extremely challenging to lift a weight above your head without your back bending. Its tricky because it requires so many muscles to work together. The weight is actually small and managable for your body size, anything you can lift above your head for a few reps you can hold on your chest all day long. You dont need to worry about racking it, if you get it trouble just toss the barbell. Lifts like this use a relatively small weight to develop abdominal and back stability, so you can safely lift weights. Someone who has spent years doing isolated tricep & shoulder exercises would probably snap in two if these tried to press a weight they thought was easy.

Another thing about the press is, you do not lift the weight behind your head. Your aiming for the barbell to go straight up, and your head move forwards.

With all your fat fears. What can I say.. your body needs a large amount of calories to be able to build more muscle and fuel powerful workouts. My calorie intake has gone up enormously for the 4 months that ive been doing this. My bodyfat has gone down and I have gained muscle. Your body needs fuel to grow, a visible six pack is only something a tiny percent of people have. Most people store fat on their stomach, if you are a 'regular' person, you would have to spend a long time building muscle with a high calorie intake, then starve yourself & do long distance running etc to burn enough fat to show your abs. If you are genetically pre disposed with not much belly fat, just keep eating and lifting and your six pack will grow.

[americanadian]

The more muscle you have, the more your ability to burn fat later. Most people make the sacrifice to gain some fat while putting on the muscle, so it will be easier to get that elusive six-pack later.

It's a choice we make. If you just want a six pack, eat less, run, lift for volume, don't worry about strength gains. Otherwise, it's a progressive journey that's gonna take time and effort. With cycling (diet and training), you can achieve what you want, but you gotta be patient. And dilligent.

5x5 or 3x5 is a good way for beginners to build the requisite strength to do other things with their bodies: be it sports, lose fat, bodybuild, be healthy etc.

Don't ever discount the importance of diet. It's the keystone of any physical regimen.

[holvoetn]

Everything already has been said more or less.

If you still have doubts, look at the logs around here and THEN tell us this program does not work.
Follow it for at least 3 months and make sure to put in the required dedication, THEN tell us this does not work.
Oh BTW, YOU need to put in the effort. That part does not come for free. However, the advice and thinking about the program does

I dropped almost 9kg simply following a diet before starting this program. Already gained 6kg back, waist however is still the same as a year ago. So no noticeable fat gain.
Weights lifted are coming in the respectable range though (check my sig or log).

Summarized: SLEEP EAT TRAIN. PERIOD.

Have fun

[aaron5x5]

thanks for all the feedback!

never thought about calories bein needed to gain muscle.
regardless, i think i may try inserting my fat-burning cardio workout into the mix and see how it works out. i see that mehdi has told other people cardio is okay on off days, just like i was thinking. i might try the bear or see if i can get into that later on, but for now it just looks like it would destroy my back.

my biggest problem comes from my back and knees hurting. that is the only thing keeping me from continuing, and i think its good to pause the workout until my form is correct and the problem is resolved. below is a video of the way i do my squats. even from the video, i have felt pain in my lower/mid back. also, i never had knee problems before this. i wear slip-on imitation vans shoes from wal-mart. they're pretty flat.

Video:

[mjh]

to be honest, this video isn't very helpful. This is because in a real barbell squat, you'll have the bar and therefore your hands behind your shoulders, not above and infront of them, and the position of the bar (higher or lower on the back), will influence the degree to which you lean forward (which is part of the movement, and not to be avoided entirely). A barbell and where it is positioned has a great deal of influence on the mechanics of the squat.

It is clear, from this video, that your hips are travelling down in almost a straight line. Your hips need to go back and down.

I'm not sure your firend really knows what he's talking about, and to be honest i think you don't have a great understanding of the squat. I'd recommend you start from scratch, and the best place for that is with the books and videos of Mark Rippetoe. His explanations will help you understand the overhead press, too.

[aaron5x5]

it may be a bit different with the bar, but this is the form i use. taking what you said in consideration along with Rippetoe's videos (and his dude-ass slapping fetish), i think i need to pay attention to my hips and moving with my ass. i tried that out without any weight and instead of feeling the tension in front, lower back, and in my knees, i felt the hamstrings, calves, and glutes working more (like my friend was describing to me). i think i did it this way for my early squats, but i lost form as the weight got heavier. i'm going to try this out on monday and see how it goes.

thanks for the input mjh, it was very helpful. and thank you to everyone else!

ps. i like the way my back is looking after this week and i think it's due to the inverted rows. are you supposed to touch your chest every time? because i can usually only do this on the first rep. any advice or do you suppose i will be able to accomplish the chest-touching once i've done the exercise more? it still gives me a good workout.

[tassietaekwon]

Hi again aaron. Glad to see that you're improving your squat. I've been working on my form alot too, and found that really sticking my butt out and driving up with hips has been helping. Also making sure you really emphasize pushing the knees outwards too. If you get a chance post another vid with a bar or bar+weights and people will be able to help you out further. (I'd suggest starting a new thread for that, you'll get better/quicker responses.)

It seems that alot of people have a similar issue with inverted rows. You really need to rip at that bar at full speed, like you want to smash your chest through it. IMO the best way to deal with this problem would be to do the bent leg version of the inverted row. You put your feet flat on the ground and have your knees bent at about 90/95 degrees. Sort of the opposite of "girl" push-ups, if you see what I mean. This makes the exercise much easier, so you should be able to pull yourself right up to the bar. Another option would be to raise the bar further off the ground, improving your leverage. This will also make them easier and you can lower the bar over time. Also work hard on your chins/pull ups, especially getting right up over the bar, these will all complement eachother.
Finally- I personally and many others on the site have dropped inverted rows and do barbell rows instead. These were in the original stronglifts program but dropped because so many people have trouble with getting their form right. If you wanted to go for that option I would suggest making sure your form is very very solid.

Hope this helps!

[wrenchhands]

I'd also say, squat barefoot. I have the exact same show as you, and gave it up to go au naturale, and it feels much better. After all, how many millions of years did we evolve the foot to be the perfect accompaniment to the body?

How many hours was the shoe designed in?

[arehb]

The squat you do on the video above looks almost like a front squat. When you front squat you try to keep your back as vertical as possible, and knees go pretty much as far forward as they can.

Low bar backsquats is something very different, and they emphazise the posterior chain muscles - like your friend told you - particularly glutes and hamstrings.

[MrWalk]

I'd also say, squat barefoot.

Yep. I put socks on in the winter, but that is it. I can't play drums with shoes on and I can't squat with shoes on.

As far as how Stronglifts works. Ha. It works, plain and simply. The only variable you have to deal with is whether or not you work. If you do, it does.

[atypical1]

-Not sure that this can really trim fat like its advertised. Plus, there's no way I'm going to eat as healthy as described ( i think that's where the losing weight promise comes from), although I still eat moderately healthy. What would you guys say about slipping cardio in? Maybe 2 one-hour days (800 calorie) in the week? or maybe just one cardio day on one of the back-to-back off days?

If you don't eat healthy and commit to some form of "diet" then you aren't going to achieve your goals. No amount of cardio and weight lifting can help you if you don't eat enough of the right calories. It's that simple really. Not eating enough healthy foods and not following a good routine is what has made you "skinny fat" right? So why would you not want to change both of those?

I would really, really, really recommend reading the SL manual again. Then re-read it a second time to really grasp the concepts that are in it. I'm not saying this to be cruel or mean but because there's a lot of material in there and it takes some amount of time to really digest (pun intended) it. The answers to the questions you have posed really are in there.

Read SL, start a training log, start eating right, start lifting right. That's the secret.

james

[holvoetn]

I would really, really, really recommend reading the SL manual again. Then re-read it a second time to really grasp the concepts that are in it. I'm not saying this to be cruel or mean but because there's a lot of material in there and it takes some amount of time to really digest (pun intended) it.

Agree !
It was only with the second read I realised Barbell Rows were in the former program hence could be used to replace Inverted Rows.
And only the 3th read I noticed BBRows could be replaced by Power Cleans