Some unfortunate happenings at the Rippetoe forum

[JasonLB]

Good point, rossi. When I hear terms like "British," "French," "German," and especially "European," I think of culture, not race or ethnicity. It's European culture I'm worried about, not its ethnic make-up.

[itsbruce]

Race is not a scientific concept. It just doesn't map on to the huge genetic diversity within and across "racial" groups.

[hardestgainer]

The first humans came from Ethiopia anyway.

[itsbruce]

And there's more genetic variation in the population of Africa than in the whole of the rest of the species. "Racially", there's no such thing as an African.

[itsbruce]

Good point, rossi. When I hear terms like "British," "French," "German," and especially "European," I think of culture, not race or ethnicity. It's European culture I'm worried about, not its ethnic make-up.

But culture changes all the time, often rapidly. The British of this decade have very little in common with those of 1940, despite the way the British still keep going on about WWII. In almost any European country, if some people from 1940 time-travelled to the present, they'd be shocked and alienated by their supposed compatriots. And their ancestors from 1870 would be similarly discombobulated by 1940.

[RobCosimo]

Good point, rossi. When I hear terms like "British," "French," "German," and especially "European," I think of culture, not race or ethnicity. It's European culture I'm worried about, not its ethnic make-up.

But culture changes all the time, often rapidly. The British of this decade have very little in common with those of 1940, despite the way the British still keep going on about WWII. In almost any European country, if some people from 1940 time-travelled to the present, they'd be shocked and alienated by their supposed compatriots. And their ancestors from 1870 would be similarly discombobulated by 1940.

Of course. The world's getting smaller - might as well just deal with it. Celebrate culture; don't fight over it.

[Wellhairedbeast]

@Rossi:

I didn't say they can't be British at all.

I said that British Racism is Ironic since the Racists themselves are most likely mixed-race at least somewhere down the line due the nature of the development of this island, since the classic era and early middle ages we have had a constant mix of other races and cultures (although most are indo-european anyway) entering the country. Therefore someone attacking another individual because they are not of the same race does not make much sense when they are most likely not 100% "native" anyway. So in affect they are attacking their own family and past.

Of course "British" refers to culture, but racists will attack individuals based on ethnicity. I think you must have misunderstood my meaning, i made no expression over my own feelings of race but was commenting on the irony of a racists beliefs, science has connected us all to Africa anyway as mentioned above, but more recent history can prove the point too.

I hope that makes my previous post clearer.

[Gringo]

Ah thank god I live in South America. People here fight more in the sense of "haves" and "have nots". Racism exits but it isn't as blatant (& absurd i dare say) as it seems to be over there. "OMG MUSLIM INVASION!!"... ridiculous.

[JasonLB]

Good point, rossi. When I hear terms like "British," "French," "German," and especially "European," I think of culture, not race or ethnicity. It's European culture I'm worried about, not its ethnic make-up.

But culture changes all the time, often rapidly. The British of this decade have very little in common with those of 1940, despite the way the British still keep going on about WWII. In almost any European country, if some people from 1940 time-travelled to the present, they'd be shocked and alienated by their supposed compatriots. And their ancestors from 1870 would be similarly discombobulated by 1940.

There's actually quite a bit of cultural continuity between early 20th century Europe and the present. But, regardless, European culture, broadly speaking, developed along a specific trajectory (as do all cultures) and it maintains certain norms, ideals, and ways of life. That's not to say Europe is monocultural, nor does that mean culture doesn't change over time. But there is still a very specific cultural legacy, and it's that legacy I'm worried about. Islam, at least as it is currently practiced throughout most of the Middle East, developed along a different trajectory and maintains different norms and ideals, most of which simply aren't compatible with those of Europe. So either Europe changes Islam, or Islam changes Europe. I'd prefer the former, but with the demographic shift happening so rapidly, one wonders what the outcome will be.

[Mehdi]

I am of different ethnicity. My father is Danish, and my mother Turkish.

That's very interesting. So who do you identify with most?

[rossi]

Race is not a scientific concept. It just doesn't map on to the huge genetic diversity within and across "racial" groups.

I bet you if I take my little nephew with me on the streets, that he will put the labels "black" and "chinese" on 100% of the people with that heritage. It's like saying countries are not a scientific concept, because the borders are arbitraly chosen by people. I don't say that you can define the concept race, we are not dogs for that matter, but you can't deny certain ethnic characteristics, that you may or may not call race.

[rossi]

Good point, rossi. When I hear terms like "British," "French," "German," and especially "European," I think of culture, not race or ethnicity. It's European culture I'm worried about, not its ethnic make-up.

But culture changes all the time, often rapidly. The British of this decade have very little in common with those of 1940, despite the way the British still keep going on about WWII. In almost any European country, if some people from 1940 time-travelled to the present, they'd be shocked and alienated by their supposed compatriots. And their ancestors from 1870 would be similarly discombobulated by 1940.

Of course. The world's getting smaller - might as well just deal with it. Celebrate culture; don't fight over it.

When people say that, they generally don't want it to include white culture. As if white culture is something bad or dangerous. I want you to see this video, it's an eyeopener.
( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... ace&hl=en# ).
It shows how normal middleclass people are very tolerant towards other cultures, but cringe and become uncomfortable when talking about "white" culture. It's a cultural taboo at the moment.

[rossi]

I am of different ethnicity. My father is Danish, and my mother Turkish.

That's very interesting. So who do you identify with most?

I am flemish of course, that is self evident.

[itsbruce]

Race is not a scientific concept. It just doesn't map on to the huge genetic diversity within and across "racial" groups.

I bet you if I take my little nephew with me on the streets, that he will put the labels "black" and "chinese" on 100% of the people with that heritage. It's like saying countries are not a scientific concept, because the borders are arbitraly chosen by people. I don't say that you can define the concept race, we are not dogs for that matter, but you can't deny certain ethnic characteristics, that you may or may not call race.

But the visible characteristics are cosmetic. There's no scientific evidence at all for the stereotypical psychological/mental/personality traits (often negative) associated with race. Quite the reverse.

[tenkev]

But the visible characteristics are cosmetic.

Sure if you consider things like height, lean muscle mass, skin color and therefore susceptibility to damage from the sun to be only cosmetic things.

There's no scientific evidence at all for the stereotypical psychological/mental/personality traits (often negative) associated with race. Quite the reverse.

A. There is no reason to put the adjective "scientific" in front of evidence. Evidence is evidence. Just a pet peeve of mine that people do all the time.
B. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve
C. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Clark_(economist)#A_Farewell_to_Alms
D. If you concede the fact that there are visible differences between the average bodies of people of different races; then, the burden of proof is on those who believe that those differences are confined only to the physical and not to the mental.
E. Stereotypes are also often positive.