Squats and Running and sore knees/legs

[Buckster13]

Hi,
Really enjoying this, have been at it for over a month and really like the program. Started out doing squats very light and am seeing the progress as I go. Currently squating about 100 lbs. My problem is that on my non-lifting days I run about 4 miles, I have been doing this for years. I am 53 years old and my knees and legs are sore and my running times are terrible. Any suggestions?

[itsbruce]

Ease back on the running until you get more used to the squats. I was running 4 or 5 times a week before I began SL5x5 but I cut that back to concentrate on the programme. And I'm younger than you

[Buckster13]

....but I love my runs and are there any health concerns with squats? Could I eliminate them all together and still have the same effect?

[luco]

Hi Buckster. How sure are you of your squat form? Can you post a form check vid? You want to make sure the problem isn't coming from a form issue.
What speed do you run at? Do you have proper running shoes? High intensity cardio sessions like running on off-days can interfere with your recovery (or maybe you'd see it as squats interfering with your running?).

If you're serious about strength training, what you should NOT do is drop the squat. It's the foundation the whole programme is built on. I'm guessing you're squatting quite a bit under your BW, so chances are your body is still adapting to squatting 3 times a week. Recovery is key here. How's your diet and sleep? What are your goals and stats like weight/height? Would be easier to say something about your problem with a little more info.

[itsbruce]

Squats are core to the program. It's up to you, but you won't get much from SL5x5 without committing to its structure. As you develop endurance, you should find you can put the running back in.

Properly done, squats are good for the knees. But you need to make sure you're not overdoing things when you start, no matter what your age.

[atypical1]

Moved to the "strength" forum.

james

[lovestolift]

Sorry if this seems like a digression, but what is your motivation for running those miles?

More on topic I have to wonder if the stress of running those four miles for 'x' number of years isn't the true culprit. I can't see a 100 lb squat messing up your knees this quickly unless you had previously set them up for injury.

Depending on your stride length, you could easily be striking the ground upwards of 10,000 times when you run 4 miles. Multiply that by how many runs per week and how many years you've been doing it and I'm sure the 300 reps of squats you've done would pale in comparison. This isn't even considering the surface you run on, how you strike the ground, or what shoes you wear.

My suggestion is to drop the running for a while, and make sure your squat form is spot on. Keep the knees shoved out and tracking over the toes. If you feel you need them after a month, add a few sessions of HIIT style sprints. You'd get a better workout in a shorter amount of time and have less impact on your knees to boot.

[sgtrock]

As for the question of squats being bad for you, there is extensive research on the issue that shows it is far healthier for you than not squatting. Another thread poster just stated that a PhD chiropractor told him essentially the same advice you get on this site. Almost all "bad for you" advice is based on anecdotal evidence. Google Mark Rippetoe, he wrote the bible on squats.

[ulbonado]

The idea that running over the long term is bad for your knees is just as much of a myth as the same claim about squatting. There have been a number of recent studies, some following people for as much as 20 years, that have shown that older runners, on average, have better knees than non-runners, not worse. Of course, you can injure your knees running if you run with poor form, worn-out shoes, on grossly uneven surfaces, etc. Injuries can happen to any athlete. But I wouldn't give up running just on the idea that the pounding "wears out" your knees.

I think the bottom line with the human body is, use it or lose it.

[micrguy]

I'll be 43 next month and come from a running/cycling background and thought that sore knees and hearing crunching noises when I walked up stairs was normal. Since I started lifting on a regular basis last summer I have noticed that my knees don't crunch anymore and they are not as sore as they used to be. I made sure that I am using proper squat form, doing joint mobility exercises first thing in the morning to "lube" my joints, drinking lots of water and cutting back on alcohol and making sure that I take glucosamine & fish oil tabs every day.

Doing squats and other leg exercises made my running pace about 30 seconds per mile slower. However, the upshot was when I stopped lifting, my mile pace was faster than before and my running partners commented that I looked a lot stronger running uphill on our long weekend trail runs. So sometimes you have to go backwards to move forward. My view is don't worry about your running pace over the winter and spend this time getting stronger in the weight room. Once spring hits, lighten up on the lifting and you will probably notice a huge improvement in your running. I really think that the human body was meant to change with the seasons, so change your training focus every 12 weeks. Just run right now, have fun and don't time yourself.

[itsbruce]

The idea that running over the long term is bad for your knees is just as much of a myth as the same claim about squatting.

A sudden extra level of stress on the knees, though, in combination with an existing relatively high level of stress (compared to somebody who doesn't run) may be a problem. All we're saying is, ease up the overall stress level till you're used to it.

His progress on SL5x5 is going to suffer if he leaves out the squats. What's going to suffer if he runs a bit less?

But I wouldn't give up running just on the idea that the pounding "wears out" your knees.

I think the bottom line with the human body is, use it or lose it.

This makes no sense to me. Exercise is good for you, yes, but that doesn't mean that infinite exercise is infinitely good for you - there's a limit.

I was running 3 to 5 times a week for a couple of years. I know that when I pushed it past a certain level (running twice a day, 4 or 5 days a week, for example), it began to hurt me. I was overstressing my legs. Also, it's well known that running while tired makes you much more prone to stress and injury - your muscles are not able to give the same level of protection to your joints. If SL5x5 is tiring him, then the running schedule that normally causes him no harm may be a source of stress and injury.

[sgtrock]

My view is don't worry about your running pace over the winter and spend this time getting stronger in the weight room. Once spring hits, lighten up on the lifting and you will probably notice a huge improvement in your running. I really think that the human body was meant to change with the seasons, so change your training focus every 12 weeks. Just run right now, have fun and don't time yourself.

It's called Sports Periodization and is used by all professional and pro-am athletes, colleges and even high school teams. In fact it is the same/similar concept you use when following a running program to train for a race, only over a longer period.

So if anybody questions you tell them you are cross-training in your off season and you'll see them eating your dust in the spring.

[sgtrock]

Incidentally here is the other thread discussing squats where NotNowChief got the same advice from a chiropractor: Are you guys sure about the Squat???

He also links to what he calls "the best referenced, written and argued case for deep barbell squatting I have come across".

For a hilarious-yet-accurate take, here is an animated video using actual quotes (a whole conversation in fact) from Mark Rippetoe, the SquatFather.

[ulbonado]

@itsbruce-- I don't disagree, of course overtraining, running while tired, etc., can lead to injury. All I was really responding to was the general statement that running is bad for your knees.