Squatting: Falling Backwards When Keeping Chest Up

[mkawa2k3]

OK, I've been trying to perfect my squat technique for a couple of weeks now and I'm getting REALLY frustrated!! My lower back rounds as I lean too far forward BUT when I try to keep my back arched and my chest up I fall backwards. Unlike many people who have problems stopping themselves pushing off from their from their toes, when trying to sit back and keep my chest up my toes are close to coming off the floor as I lose balance.

Also, before I tried to "correct" my technique my knees felt absolutely fine, never had any problems. NOW, however, since doing floor squats, wall squats, squat stretches AND concentrating on pushing my knees out laterally, they hurt all the time and creak/pop a lot when I walk. I should also add that I haven't squatted with anything heavier than the bar for over a week whereas I was up to 73kg before (bw=80kg). I am less flexible now than when I was squatting with "poor" technique (http://stronglifts.com/forum/video-squats-and-back-pain-t12130.html) and this is particulalrly affecting my football/soccer (I play in goal and I can't get down as quick due to my sore knees). They hurt when I near parallel during the squat and when I push the front of my knee firmly with my fingers.

So to summarise, I have a few questions:
1. Has anyone else had the 'catch 22' problem of a rounded back when leant forward BUT the inability to keep an arched back and chest up without falling backwards?
2. Does anyone have any pointers to correct this problem?
3. Can anyone explain why squatting with "better" form (knees out laterally and not in front of toes, back straighter, chest higher + warmup stretches) has caused sudden knee pain?

Thanks in advance.

[mae]

I've had the same kind of problem; in my case I lean forward excessively to keep myself from feeling like I'm going to tip over backwards, especially when trying to follow the advice to keep my weight on my heels rather than toes. I just assumed this was some kind of core strength issue. So I've been trying to do the reps more slowly and to keep my midsection tight and it seems to help. I ordered Rippetoe's Starting Strength and I'm hoping that the book will recommend some solutions to this problem.

[DaveC]

I don't know, but I think you should just keep posting videos here. If you're experiencing pain, you need to fix it before your body isn't just warning you about a potential injury anymore.

From the video on the other thread, I think you need to get the bar a little lower on your back and that might help with balance/keeping your chest up.

[eLvarouza]

There's a difference between keeping your chest up and keeping your entire torso perpendicular to the ground, which it seems you're trying to do. You should lean forward. You must. In your other video you were leaning forward too much.

[mkawa2k3]

Dave C:

From the video on the other thread, I think you need to get the bar a little lower on your back and that might help with balance/keeping your chest up.

- Although I may need to get the bar lower for other reasons, I'm pretty sure that for the sake of balance it will make things more difficult as the weight will be further to the rear (thus making me lean forward MORE to counter-act this weight). I can't actually get the bar lower without bending my wrists backwards despite doing shoulder dislocations for a month.

eLvarouza:

There's a difference between keeping your chest up and keeping your entire torso perpendicular to the ground, which it seems you're trying to do. You should lean forward. You must. In your other video you were leaning forward too much.

- I'm not trying to keep my torso perpendicular to the ground, wall squats don't require this. However keeping my chest up requires a straighter torso and I can't keep it straighter than it is below (new vid recorded today) without falling backwards. The only time I can keep my chest sufficiently up is if I hold onto something in front of me (if I let go, surprise surprise, I fall backwards).



If you see in the vid I can only keep an arched back up until my thighs are at 45° (halfway between parallel and locked out).

Here's a theory I've been working on:
- The bar should be above the centre of your feet when you squat
- I have quite long legs relative to my torso (legs = 102cm, torso+head = 73cm), therefore to keep the bar in this position when I sit back and squat, I have to lean forward more
- Excessive leaning forward causes my back to round
- Solution... grow a longer torso / shorten my legs?!

Any thoughts?

[DaveC]

The first four repetitions of this video look pretty good. There is some buttwink, but I don't think it's too bad. Then, on the 5th rep, you start leaning forward with your shoulders alot. I'm no expert, and you sit back into your squat better than I do, but I can see from the video that the bar being higher on your back leaves it more over your toes than your heels.

I understand the flexibility issue, but if you widen your grip a bit you should be able to get the bar a tiny bit lower, and I would try not sitting back as far. Your knees over toes look great, but if you weren't having knee pain before, maybe it's okay for your knees to come a bit more forward. I know mine do.

Also, it's different with no weight on the bar, but I think it would be best to try to unrack it the way you want to grip it and not adjust once it is on your back. I know I usually just rerack it and start over if I feel like I didn't get it in the spot I wanted.

Sorry, if this came off as bossy or whatever, but I have a similar body composition to you (long legs) so...just my 5 cents.

[mkawa2k3]

DaveC:

I think it would be best to try to unrack it the way you want to grip it and not adjust once it is on your back. I know I usually just rerack it and start over if I feel like I didn't get it in the spot I wanted.

- Good point; definitely going to focus on this. Do you find it uncomfortable having the bar on your back without any padding? I'm OK with ~50kg but above that it really hurts. I've been told not to add padding to the bar (I previously used a bit of pipe lagging) but without it squatting heavier weights (I was up to 72kg) is pretty painful.

DaveC:

Sorry, if this came off as bossy or whatever, but I have a similar body composition to you (long legs) so...just my 5 cents.

- Not bossy at all mate - just really helpful, concise and to the point - cheers!

I think I'm gonna take a week off from doing any squat work as my knees aren't getting better by doing light squat work. Can anyone recommend anything to aid recovery (applying ice / heat, massage, stretches etc.)? I'm really annoyed with myself as my knees weren't hurting at all originally (and I've never had problems with knee pain before), then I tried floor squats to practice using my glutes and they destroyed my knees!!

[DaveC]

The bar used to hurt my back, and I would wrap just a t-shirt around the bar to help with that. However, squatting 3x/week builds up those upper back muscles pretty fast if you focus on really pushing your elbows back. I think one reason not to add a lot of padding to the bar is that it will focus the weight on the center of your back instead of dispersing the weight over most of the surface of your upper back with the even surface of just the bar.

A week off is probably a good idea, and start out light when you resume squatting. Do you have any pain when you deadlift?

Sorry, I'm not sure what would help speed your recovery. Maybe Mehdi will have some ideas.

[eLvarouza]

Your squatting form looks much better. As said you do have some butt-wink, but stretching your hamstrings and continuing to learn the feel of lumbar extension will correct this. If you cannot tell when you are squatting what is happening with your lower back, you still have some work to do with learning lumbar extension. Anyway your form looks much better, and I'd stick with it.

Do your knees hurt when you do bodyweight squats, or squats with the bar?

3. Can anyone explain why squatting with "better" form (knees out laterally and not in front of toes, back straighter, chest higher + warmup stretches) has caused sudden knee pain?

Just note that shoving your knees out is what needs to happen, but the knees can go in front of the toes. As you said earlier, floor squats probably caused the problem.

Also, about your grip issues, I noticed you're trying to stand up straight with the bar low on your back, which is not possible with heavy weights. You should be slightly leaned forward, but still with a big chest. Don't worry about standing tall like you would at the top of a deadlift or something.

[mkawa2k3]

DaveC:

Do you have any pain when you deadlift?

- Yeah it hurts a bit when I deadlift, not as much as squatting as I'm not going as low but enough to warrant a rest me thinks.

elVarouza:

Do your knees hurt when you do bodyweight squats, or squats with the bar?

- They don't really hurt when doing light squat work but they feel unstable. After doing a bit of research I think I've strained my ACL (apparently one of the symptoms is a feeling that the knee will give way if locked out which is exactly what I feel). I've been icing them and have got some tubigrip for support/compression.

I've also been doing a bit of reading on long leg / short torso problems and a lot of people reccomend front squats - anyone tried these? After reading Mehdi's blog post on them I want to give them a try; this bloke has amazing form considering the weight on the bar!!



Again I can't say thanks enough for the advice, guys. I've been looking around the forum trying to find somewhere where I can help someone out but as a beginner I don't really know much!!