Why You Should NEVER Do The Atkins Diet for Fat Loss (Blog)

[Mehdi]

I understand this can be a sensitive topic for people who have lost weight successfully using Atkins. I'm not trashing your results. I want you to make you think about what you did, and consider if there couldn't have been an even more effective way to do the same.

The Atkins diet is not zero carbs and only the first few weeks are severely limited. I don't thinks Atkins and Stronglifts are mutually exclusive.

I agree Atkins isn't zero carbs forever. I explained that in the 2nd paragraph of the article.

Could you explain why you think SL5x5 & Atkins aren't exclusive?


@thefinalsql
Congraz on the 50lbs weight loss, it's awesome.

Consider this: if you're 300lbs at 5'8" with 40% body fat, do you think you would lose weight too if you'd focus on fat loss?

Atkins Approach (the way I see it)
* Lose lots of weight
* Lose muscle & strength at the same time
* Result is huge weight loss, but skinny-fat
* Get into strength training to re-build that muscle, increase strength, and get a healthier looking body.

A better approach
* Focus on fat loss. Cut down carb intake but still have carbs post workout. Do strength training to prevent muscle loss and increase dietary adherence. Cardio to speed things up.
* This can or can not be coupled with weight loss (depending on height/% body fat - if you want examples ask)
* Body fat goes down while muscle mass increase

The 2nd approach is a straight line to where you want to go. Atkins approach you've got 3 steps. Everyone gets this?

[Mehdi]

@Alanrlow
Thanks for getting back. Please keep the tone civil. I like mature & intelligent discussions where we can both learn from eachother.

From what I understand, you think muscles don't need carbs, and so that's where the rest of you logic comes? Where did you got this idea from?

There's a difference between low & high intensity activities. High intensity (like strength training) use carbs (glycogen). Low intensity like walking uses fat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogen

That's why you need to replenish carb stores from time to time: muscles need it for strength training.

You can ask Brad Pilon if he thinks you need carbs as fuel for high intensity activities like strength training. I know he will tell you yes. You can ask other guys like Tom Venuto, John Berardi, Lyle McDonald, etc will all tell you the same thing.

I agree with you (and Brad Pilon) that you can train in a fasted state without issues - I've done it plenty of time. And I agree with you that you don't need to eat carbs preworkout or counting calories and all that other crap.

My point is that you need carbs for high intensity strength training. Atkins puts you too long in a low-carb state, doesn't mix.

Let me know if something isn't clear.

[thefinalsql]

@Mehdi
A agree with you about the need of carbohydrate for high intensity training. I do not think I have reached the high intensity part yet. I have yet to stall on anything. Once I will I am edging toward high intensity I will certainly add carbs and re-prioritize my goals.

This site is extremely informative, answers a lot of questions for me. I highly recommend reading it. Probably the most important thing I got from the site is that protein consumption without an adequate supply of sodium and potassium is all for not.

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2

[Jereplofje]

That goes for tons of minerals and vitamins, not just a healthy sodium/potassium balance.

A strong body needs strong bones. For that, you need a good calcium/magnesium balance + vitamin d.
That's just one more of the 69 examples.


I must say, I have never met anyone that goes nigh completely carbless but still manages to get into top class weight lifting.
I doubt you can really get to really high goals without carbs.
As far as neoglucogenesis goes, I doubt its effectivity. If I'm not mistaken, proteins can only be synthesized into glucose with a 60% effectivity rate (I think that was in Lyle McDonald's book on the Ketogenic Diet).

I don't know if that's any different with fat. Anyone have an idea on that?

[alanrlow]

@Alanrlow
Thanks for getting back. Please keep the tone civil. I like mature & intelligent discussions where we can both learn from eachother.

From what I understand, you think muscles don't need carbs, and so that's where the rest of you logic comes? Where did you got this idea from?

There's a difference between low & high intensity activities. High intensity (like strength training) use carbs (glycogen). Low intensity like walking uses fat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogen

That's why you need to replenish carb stores from time to time: muscles need it for strength training.

You can ask Brad Pilon if he thinks you need carbs as fuel for high intensity activities like strength training. I know he will tell you yes. You can ask other guys like Tom Venuto, John Berardi, Lyle McDonald, etc will all tell you the same thing.

I agree with you (and Brad Pilon) that you can train in a fasted state without issues - I've done it plenty of time. And I agree with you that you don't need to eat carbs preworkout or counting calories and all that other crap.

My point is that you need carbs for high intensity strength training. Atkins puts you too long in a low-carb state, doesn't mix.

Let me know if something isn't clear.

I apologise if I came across as uncivil, this was never my intention, I have the greatest respect for you and your work. However misinformation is something that irritates me.

>From what I understand, you think muscles don't need carbs, and so that's where the rest of you logic comes? Where did you got this idea from?

Muscles need glucose, they don't need carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are a very poor and unstable way to provide glucose. I quote:
Gluconeogenesis is a metabolic pathway that results in the generation of glucose from non-carbohydrate carbon substrates such as lactate, glycerol, and glucogenic amino acids.
Gluconeogenesis takes place mainly in the liver and, to a smaller extent, in the cortex of kidneys. This process occurs during periods of fasting, starvation, or intense exercise and is highly endergonic.

Notice "intense Exercise". Carbohydrates can only provide extreme energy for an hour or so before you hit the wall. On the other hand fat can supply glocose via GNG for weeks with no loss of output. "Conventional Wisdom" says carbohydrates are necessary but this is slowly being over turned as research shows it to be faulty. Many races never ever eat any carbohydrates and operate under the harshest most extreme conditions and perform physical exertions that would kill westerners, all without any dietary carbohydrates.

I personally eat no carbs except for the tiny amount present in eggs and some occasionally in cheese. I workout intensely 6 days a week for at least an hour (don't want to stop some days) and intermittently fast 2-3 days a week for 24 hours and feel fantastic.
I think once you get past this ingrained thinking especially this moronic fats are bad carbs are healthy type of misinformation real health will come.
We have been sold a real crock with "healthy grains" (about the worst thing you can eat) being foisted on us and the ubiquitous and toxic wheat finding its way into nearly everything.

I'll leave you with a quote from Dr Kurt Harris when I asked him about my glucose needs:
Quote:
If ketones never show up in your urine, the chance you are depleting your glycogen significantly is pretty much nil. I have no strong opinion on the "refeed theory", but it seems a little precious and artificial at best.
You can function without "refeeding" because liver glycogen will get replaced one way or another (meals or GNG) and the intensity and amount of anaerobic exercise required to seriously deplete your glycogen even on VLC is very high. The body is very conservative of glucose if in or near ketosis. Also, glucose used in anaerobic glycolysis is turned into lactate, but the lactate is recycled back into glucose as soon as you are at rest.
End Quote.
The secret is being keto adapted and that is something that most studies haven't examined due to the fact that it can take several weeks to completely switch from being a carb burner to a fat burner the way the body evolved to operate. No studies I have read went past 3 weeks, ridiculously short.
"Conventional Wisdom" is a bad teacher and I hope anyone interested in finding out more will take the time to research and not just blindly swallow what's fed to them,including anything I say. Repeating the same rubbish over and over doesn't make it true.
Again I apologise for my tone, it wasn't my intention.
Alan.

[Mehdi]

@thefinalsql
I agree with you that you could get away with Atkins if you're not training at high intensities yet. That's what I meant with the sedentary lifestyle thing in the article. I have a long-term vision for the stuff I recommend on this site. It bothers me to tell people to do this, then change it again once you reach that point. Do it right from the start.

Thanks for link, will check it out.


@alanrlow
No problem. Myths & misinformation bother me too, so we're on the same line.

If you can get away without refeeds, I'd consider the intensity of your workouts (no offence). People who have done the Anabolic Diet (similar to Atkins but with refeeds 2 days out of 7) know that the workouts on the 4th/5th day of the week are harder than at the start of the week. Why? Because glycogen stores get depleted and type 2 fibers need glycogen. It's basic physiology - not something psychological. I've done the AD for months and I know it. Dylanamus has done it too and shared info above.

If you have an open mind, I recommend you read "the ketogenic diet" by Lyle McDonald which Jereplofje mentioned above. It's full of theory & research about ketogenic diets and takes weight lifting into consideration (and it doesn't trash Atkins unlike I did).

[alanrlow]

No problem. Myths & misinformation bother me too, so we're on the same line.

If you can get away without refeeds, I'd consider the intensity of your workouts (no offence). People who have done the Anabolic Diet (similar to Atkins but with refeeds 2 days out of 7) know that the workouts on the 4th/5th day of the week are harder than at the start of the week. Why? Because glycogen stores get depleted and type 2 fibers need glycogen. It's basic physiology - not something psychological. I've done the AD for months and I know it. Dylanamus has done it too and shared info above.

If you have an open mind, I recommend you read "the ketogenic diet" by Lyle McDonald which Jereplofje mentioned above. It's full of theory & research about ketogenic diets and takes weight lifting into consideration (and it doesn't trash Atkins unlike I did).

I don't think I quite understand what you mean about refeeds. Glycogen is stored in skeletal muscles, 65%,and the rest in the liver (totalling about 2000 kcal in the whole body) enough for 1 strenuous workout but certainly not 4. Are you saying that the only way to replenish glycogen stores is to eat carbs? My body is continuously making glycogen via GNG. Yes I will deplete some glycogen but it is definitely replaced by the next day and doesn't run down over several days, that would be silly. I again refer you to what Doctor Kurt Harris advised me,

If ketones never show up in your urine, the chance you are depleting your glycogen significantly is pretty much nil. You can function without "refeeding" because liver glycogen will get replaced one way or another (meals or GNG) and the intensity and amount of anaerobic exercise required to seriously deplete your glycogen even on VLC is very high. The body is very conservative of glucose if in or near ketosis. Also, glucose used in anaerobic glycolysis is turned into lactate, but the lactate is recycled back into glucose as soon as you are at rest.

I test for ketones in my urine regularly and since becoming keto adapted haven't detected even a trace. Therefore I'm confident I am not depleting my glycogen stores.
As for the intensity of my workout, I'll admit it's hard to quantify for you but a typical routine would last 60min and consist of: 100 one legged squats, dead lifts (one legged),flat and incline bench press 81lb (one hand), bentover and upright rows (same weight) Arnold press, DB flys, pullovers, lat raisers, snatch & press and some db swings to get the heart working. I'm at a bit of a disadvantage with a lot of exercises as I'm 53 and a bi-lateral amputee, (right arm above elbow right leg above knee) but I do my best to make it as strenuous as I can.
The problem with Anabolic Diets is that it's neither one thing nor the other so of course you are going to have problems. You are entering ketosis then you stuff everything up by eating carbs then going back to LC. Not good.
Thanks for the recommendation, I have been trying to get a hold of The Ketogenic Diet, I will keep trying.
Alan.

[Mehdi]

I don't think I quite understand what you mean about refeeds. Glycogen is stored in skeletal muscles, 65%,and the rest in the liver (totalling about 2000 kcal in the whole body) enough for 1 strenuous workout but certainly not 4. Are you saying that the only way to replenish glycogen stores is to eat carbs? My body is continuously making glycogen via GNG. Yes I will deplete some glycogen but it is definitely replaced by the next day and doesn't run down over several days, that would be silly. I again refer you to what Doctor Kurt Harris advised me,

There's something called supercompensation: amount of glycogen in muscles can be higher than normal. The more you deplete the stores, the greater the compensation. That's how AD works.

I read Doctor Kurt Harris quote (no idea who he is). I don't agree that you don't need refeeds. Lyle McDonald explains in his book that without carbs not enough glycogen is resynthesized. His solution is therefore to include refeeds: either for 24-48h once a week (like AD) or around training (like 8 nutrition rules, precision nutrition, ...).

Good job on keeping on lifting with all the things holding you back. Inspiring!

[Jereplofje]

Good job on keeping on lifting with all the things holding you back. Inspiring!

+1
Respect!

[alanrlow]

Good job on keeping on lifting with all the things holding you back. Inspiring!

Thanks, I appreciate that. Not much holds me back, just figuring out how to modify exercises to suit. You can see what I have managed to achieve at my facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2 ... 530f69f0bf

These photos are several months old now though and I think I have made some good gains since then. Will have to talk the missus into taking some more.

Cheers,
Alan.

[alanrlow]

Hi Mehdi, I hope you don't mind me revisiting this topic. Firstly thank you for recommending "the ketogenic diet" by Lyle McDonald. I have now read it and while it is a good read with some good information I still don't agree with all his points, some of which are contradictory between chapters, but I really want to give you an update.

Because I believe we always have something to learn and I'm open to trying new things I thought I'd tell you of my last 2 weeks experiment.

Firstly to level the playing field, although I've been essentially zero carb for years I went 10 days absolutely zero carb. Only kangaroo meat and turkey and chicken breast. BTW it was great and I felt excellent and my workouts were strong. During the meat only diet I did 6 low rep heavy weight workouts of an hour each. As per Lyle McDonald recommendations on breaking a SKD the last two were shorter depletion workouts. I then then hit the carbs, mind you I hate junk food so it was still reasonably good food after the last depletion workout. High reps, low weight, 3 sets only, 1 hour duration.
The next day I did a normal workout and let me tell you in all honesty it would have to be the worst I have ever had. I didn't get close to any PR's and suffered heartburn / indigestion and came close to puking several times. I only managed 2 sets of 20 squats, 5x5 deadlift, 3x10 weighted lunge, 3x20 weighted goodmornings, 2x20 weighted calf raisers and a few bicep/tricep curls and 25 min of cardio after. All were done rest pause fashion (20 seconds rest) as I think it gives a good estimation of performance. I felt buzzy, tingling and most out of sorts, still do the next day.

I think I would have to conclude my body prefers low/no carbs and will have to stick to what works for me. At some future time I might experiment with small carbup 1/2 hour before a workout to see if it helps but I won't be doing a 12/24 hour carbup any-time soon.

On a side note, I have been reading about a father son marathon bicycling duo, the son of whom is experimenting with low carb eating and fat loading before a race while his father is sticking to carb loading. So far the son is noticing improvements in stamina and endurance over his father and is substantially bettering his own times. Interesting.
Thanks for reading, keep up the informative posts.

Kind Regards,
Alan.