Phil wrote:
Your website, and your blog does a lot for me, highly educational and motivational both. I do have a question actually:
What are your thoughts comparing weighted chins VS the barbell rows? Once I started hanging weights from my waist to do chinups it seemed like I started making some solid gains in the upper back, shoulders, etc. But I had not been doing the rows either, so are the two pretty similar as far as what muscles are hit?
thanks much, Phil
Bodybuilders would say that Weighted Pull-ups are more for back width while Barbell Rows are for back thickness/mass. Strength trainers will tell you that getting stronger at Barbell Rows is almost always going to boost your Bench Press and Deadlift. Pull-ups are closed chain and tend to help your Press more (exact opposite movement, use same grip width for even more carry-over).
I frankly don't like that mindset of "what's the best exercise, X or Y". You should just do Weighted Pull-ups, Barbell Rows and Deadlifts for maximal muscle and strength gains. Okay, StrongLifts 5x5 doesn't include Pull-ups because there's only so much you can do in 1 workout, but you could do 3x12 after Deadlifts.
Remember you can't do endless reps of body-weight Pull-ups forever or you're just working endurance. You need to add weight because muscle size is directly related to strength gains. This is why you started seeing more gains in your upper-back and shoulders after you began adding weight to your Pull-ups.
As an extra bonus, getting stronger at Weighted Pull-ups will make body-weight Pull-ups a lot easier. Not quite as much as Barbell Squats makes body-weight Squats easier, but still. So don't be afraid of switching to Weighted Pull-ups.
i tip my hat to anyone that can do pullups after deadlift. my grip strength alone is shot after deadlifts….can barely hold my car keys haha
Good post, I’d have to say this has been my experience as well.
I don’t want to deviate from the StrongLifts 5×5 formula, only if Mehdi “officially” approves a modification.
Does this post mean that it’s “legal” to completely substitute Weighted Pull-ups for Barbell Rows? (I like pull-ups more than rows – they’re much simpler technique-wise, so there is less chance of bad form & injury).
Yeah, i would also like to know if one can do chins 5×5 (weighted chins) instead of barbell rows 5×5.. Form is better on chins..
I would not recommend substituting weighted chins for barbell rows because as Mehdi says they are closed chain and will not help your lower back strength. I also feel that when doing chins people try to muscle them out more instead of concentrating on correct form. Included in this is really working your rhomboids and middle traps. Properly executing rows also involves more posterior deltoid which is important to offset the work your anterior delt gets from presses and benching.
The way I interperatd the post, pull ups won’t be an “approved” substitution for rows simply because rows wil enhance performance in the Benchpress and Deadlift.
It’s worth mentioning that (at least in an earlier version of SL 5×5) he recommended doing pull ups in the end of the B-workout as an exsessary excsersise.
Then learn the form for them.
It is basically saying that you need to start to add weight when doing chins if you follow the SL with assistance when you can do a lot of reps.
do them both!
Big difference between pull ups and chin ups
First of: Stronglifts saved my life man. Even though I haven’t been following the program 100% – this website with all its information, instructions and philosophies regarding weight training got me from doing crazy shit while getting injured shoulders to where I am now. Focused, clever, strong as fuck and more confident. Which is amazing.
Regarding pull ups and rows my thoughts are to do em both – not in the same workout, but switch them around like bench and press. Don’t do rows on deadlift day as your lower back is already wasted. Don’t do rows if your lower back is tired or sore. Which ever one you chose just make sure you have weight progression!
Fantastic information guys!
I agree with some of the posts here. I wouldn’t substitute the rows for chinups/pullups, but instead add them on Fridays (3 sets to failure – which is not many for me yet) regardless of whether I’m on workout A or B. As I’m still on low reps for bodyweight I haven’t added weight yet.
I’ve been doing chin ups after deadlift. No problem.
The way I’ve incorporated them is I immediately after deadlift do a 1 set of chin up for 5 reps. Then a 30 sec breather and again 5 reps.
Then I load the weight belt with the weights and hit 3 sets with 5 reps per set (if possible).
I self-regulate this in such a fashion that if I only get one set of full 5 and the second one is under 5 or a really hard 5, then I just do a regular chin up for the last set for max rep.
If I do get 2 sets full and the last set is not full 5, then immediately after I get the belt of I do max reps (which is usually around 3-5 at that point).
The weights have been steadily increasing about 1,25kg every 2-3 workouts. I up the weights only if I get the full 3×5 (not including the warm ups).
I started this with doing first 3×5 unweighted, then 5×5 unweighted and the I took the belt on and started adding weights.
Now with my BW of 71, I got 13,5kg extra weight hanging and soon to go up another 1,25kg.
Experiment a bit guys, we are all different and somethings work for others and some not. For me it has worked and my biceps are bigger than ever (that’s my main reason for doing these).
Keep up the good work Mehdi!