Jim Wendler Seminar - Some Interesting Points

[MikeD]

Made it to the Wendler Seminar in Chicago, and he went over a few things that may be of interest:

For people who want to be strong, with an emphasis on getting bigger -

My notes basically say "5/3/1 + 5x10 + 30 min walking/3 days + increase caloric liquids"

5/3/1 routine for the strength, the 5x10 of whatever big lift you're doing that day, 30 mins of walking to keep some of the fat off and ensure you're not completely de-conditioned, and liquid calories are just easier to ingest.
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Conditioning:

Hard condition occurs on lower body day (sprints, hills, prowler...)
Light condition on Upper days as not to effect the lower body days
Basic limiting of cals/carbs, nothing crazy here

Sample for someone wanting to get into fantastic athletic shape, while trying to build/maintain strength:

30-40 mins easy conditioning in the morning
5/3/1 lifting at some point during the day, 3-4 days a week
Followed by hard conditioning, 4 days a week
Very strenuous
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He went over the importance of having easy conditioning, or (gasp!) steady state cardio, giving the example of an elite college football athlete who had an unusually high resting heart rate. They had him on a treadmill walking for extended periods of time and his heart rate plummeted.
1)Easy conditioning helps people adapt
2)Positively impacts strength by not overtaxing your recovery
3)Work capacity increases because of it
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People who want to be conditioned while gaining strength:

Get to a satisfactory level of conditioning (maybe 2 hard conditioning workouts a week), and simply maintain that amount, while building strength around it.
Amount of hills/trips on prowler should not increase but be maintained at a level that keeps you conditioned while allowing you to make strength gains. Some experimentation is necessary of course.
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Box Squat vs. Free Squat

-Believes Box Squat is great to teach squat, and is good for people with bad knees
-The carryover or usefulness, however, only really applies to multi-ply lifters
-He concluded by saying that if you're not a multi-ply lifter and can safely free squat, then pick the free squat 100% of the time

Later, I asked him why so much emphasis on box squatting is prevalent in sports training.
He said because it's easy to teach, and they need some type of squatting movement. Instead of working out free squat kinks, they might as well save time, and get strong on box squats. Also, they can recover fast usually.

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Quick technique points:

Recommends trying the false grip for OH press (not bench). He says that helped him immensely with shoulder/bar tracking problems

Clean: Demonstrated the "ugliest clean ever", which involves simply getting the bar from the floor to the shoulders any way possible. Not triple extension or hip whip. Just grab it, jump, pull it onto the shoulders.
Made the point that technique is only really significantly important for people training to lift a lot of goddamned weight or an oly-lifter

Squat: Basically what Mehdi/Rippetoe recommends. Except he says that one should drive the elbows under the bar and push up into it. Basically gets the same job as elbows up: it keeps the chest up, but then again, it works for him, so...

[smalls]

Very informative. Thank you very much. I'm gonna steal that conditioning idea

[Amiright]

5x10 is so boring, if you can select proper exercises for the things that need work then his other "assistant templates" are better.. Wish I could make it out to one of his seminars, thanks for the post.

[atypical1]

Thanks for posting your notes. I would have loved to be at that seminar.

Yeah, 5*10 is boring but that template is called "boring but big" for a reason.

james

[muddy]

Cool, thanks for sharing your notes!

I'm really surprised about the box squat thing. Did he include box squats where the shins stay vertical or go behind vertical as well? I don't understand why he'd say that manner of bsq have no carry-over for non-geared lifting. I could understand that about box squats where the shins are allowed to come forward and not stay vertical or behind.

[Wellhairedbeast]

Cheers for sharing those notes.

I have a question (probably a stupid one) im not so familiar with the false grip but with reading descriptions it sounds like a similar grip to those used in low bar squatting - a thumbless grip (under/against the bar not around), is that the same grip at all?

[LiftingNerd]

I have a question (probably a stupid one) im not so familiar with the false grip but with reading descriptions it sounds like a similar grip to those used in low bar squatting - a thumbless grip (under/against the bar not around), is that the same grip at all?

Correct. It's also called a suicide grip, if you are more familiar with that term.

[bkklift]

Thanks for this. Would love to be able to attend a Jim Wendler seminar.

I've just started following Jim's 5/3/1 after reading a few of his articles and manuals. I love the simplicity with which he and the boys at EliteFTS approach things. Sometimes people forget working out hard and pushing yourself on the big lifts is what brings results.

[JasonLB]

Cool, thanks for sharing your notes!

I'm really surprised about the box squat thing. Did he include box squats where the shins stay vertical or go behind vertical as well? I don't understand why he'd say that manner of bsq have no carry-over for non-geared lifting. I could understand that about box squats where the shins are allowed to come forward and not stay vertical or behind.

I don't know, it's not that surprising. If you look at who popularized the box squat and how they taught the lift it makes perfect sense. Most of the guys at Westside (maybe all?) were lifting in multi-ply feds -- a geared squat (multi-ply) and a RAW or single ply squat are two very different animals, so it's no surprise the training should reflect those differences. Go to youtube and compare the squats at a WPO meet with those at an IPF meet and I think the difference will be more than obvious -- who might get more carryover from a wide stance box squat with shins staying vertical also seems pretty obvious.

[muddy]

Cool, thanks for sharing your notes!

I'm really surprised about the box squat thing. Did he include box squats where the shins stay vertical or go behind vertical as well? I don't understand why he'd say that manner of bsq have no carry-over for non-geared lifting. I could understand that about box squats where the shins are allowed to come forward and not stay vertical or behind.

I don't know, it's not that surprising. If you look at who popularized the box squat and how they taught the lift it makes perfect sense. Most of the guys at Westside (maybe all?) were lifting in multi-ply feds -- a geared squat (multi-ply) and a RAW or single ply squat are two very different animals, so it's no surprise the training should reflect those differences. Go to youtube and compare the squats at a WPO meet with those at an IPF meet and I think the difference will be more than obvious -- who might get more carryover from a wide stance box squat with shins staying vertical also seems pretty obvious.

That's just it - it seems to me from doing these that vertical or behind shin box squats really do work my hamstrings, whereas doing box squats where I allow the shins to go forward of vertical never made any sense to me at all. I would rather do free squats. My only complaint about the vertical or behind version of box squats is they are hard on the hips, and I could see how wearing a squat suit even with the straps down would take some of the beating off the hips.

So what I'm saying is that from my own personal experience it seems very surprising and counter to that experience, unless Jim is referring to the beating these can put on your hips.

[JasonLB]

I definitely think the beating on the hips is part of it. But then again, that also speaks to the fact that box squats, done in that fashion, were implemented to help guys with an ultra wide stance, geared squat, all of whom used supportive gear while box squatting -- it's just not really meant to be used without gear. And the fact it hits the hams and hips so hard is precisely why it has so much carryover to a geared squat. But I'm not saying it's a useless lift for those of us who squat raw and if it's helped you put more weight on the bar, then by all means, keep at it... I think Wendler is just putting things in perspective. Let's be honest, a lot of people see guys from "Westside" doing something and then try to incorporate it in their own training without understanding why and under what circumstances that particular method is best used. Context is everything, after all.

[LiftingNerd]

Box squats, done with a wide stance and pushing your hips back onto the box, do hit the glutes and hamstrings, but if done exclusively they neglect quad development that is necessary when free squatting raw.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/going_raw.htm

[Wellhairedbeast]

I have a question (probably a stupid one) im not so familiar with the false grip but with reading descriptions it sounds like a similar grip to those used in low bar squatting - a thumbless grip (under/against the bar not around), is that the same grip at all?

Correct. It's also called a suicide grip, if you are more familiar with that term.

Thanks for confirming that, yeah most definitely a suicide grip on the bench. I would have thought it would be risky also with the OHP as it could be dropped onto your head still.

[MikeD]

5x10 is so boring, if you can select proper exercises for the things that need work then his other "assistant templates" are better.. Wish I could make it out to one of his seminars, thanks for the post.

Like someone else said, boring but big indeed...

I thought the box squat was the most interesting point as well. He DID touch on the shins slightly vertical and incorporating the quads, but he came back to the point that if you were going to do that, you might as well be free squatting.


But I think box squats have usefulness. They exaggerate certain things about the free squat that really help to cue you correctly. Knees out and sitting back are the most important things for the box squat to be done efficiently and without knee pain. When you go back to free squatting after this, it's almost second nature to keep your groin open and really reach to get that hamstring stretch.
This also falls in line with what Jim said, that box squatting is an easy way to teach the squat.

[MikeD]

I have a question (probably a stupid one) im not so familiar with the false grip but with reading descriptions it sounds like a similar grip to those used in low bar squatting - a thumbless grip (under/against the bar not around), is that the same grip at all?

Correct. It's also called a suicide grip, if you are more familiar with that term.

Thanks for confirming that, yeah most definitely a suicide grip on the bench. I would have thought it would be risky also with the OHP as it could be dropped onto your head still.

Agreed. But I'm going to try it friday and see if it feels any different.

He also touched on the ridiculousness that if you go against the gospel that is Westside, you get an awful lot of shit for it. This is short sighted. People mock bodybuilders for the drugs they take, as if the guys over at WS are beating the shit out of their bodies and squatting well over 1000 without any "help", and should expect everyone to use these methods should be hitting the 1000 lb squat mark. Insanity


He said that he always thought PL'ing was the "gayest sport ever" because it's the only one where the guys care what the other guys are wearing. E.g., their squat suits and bench shirts. The fact that PL'ers are caring less about how strong they are and more about what they can get out of their equipment is unfortunate to him. There was also a strongman at the seminar, and I was unclear what he meant by people being "good at the events" rather than strong, but it seemed to mean that priorities are shifting.

The only people who really have to lift heavy anymore, it seems, is bodybuilders.